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The Beasts Smell Blood
- Thread starter Aaron
- Start date
Deist not the same as a biblical source of truth.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
All humans know that murdering them is wrong. And this does lead to, "All humans know internally that murder is wrong." As CS Lewis puts it, "The first sum has been worked out for us."
This is why God could give and reiterate the command, "Love your neighbor as yourself." You may call it an argument from reason, but it is based on reason with which all are endowed. The Bible recognizes this and makes good use of it, but it is not alone in this.
Note that this doesn't mean no one will commit murder. That is an entirely different aspect, one where people can be held to account for the violation.
For clarity, let me put it another way.
If man has a God given unalienable right to life, then man has a God given unalienable right to salvation.
I just don't see it (and this is my #1 objection, even beyond the fact it is absent from Scripture) for the idea.
It removes salvation from divine grace to the realm of divine responsibility and tears the gospel to shreds.
There are some "pros" to the idea that we have a God given unalienable right to life. First, it completely destroys the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement, which I believe goes to the error of extreme. Second, it makes any type of capital punishment a sin against God (I'm torn on this one, but siding with not supporting the killing of folks...even bad ones). It gives me rights that Scripture never gives me (it is a "bonus", so to speak, from what God tells of man).
But the cons are too great.
Romans 2:14-16
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
Thank you. So it is in the bible.
Not even an apology for name calling?
Perhaps you are slow to make connections.
The writer in the Bible confirms what reason and rationalism observed...that humans naturally know right from wrong.
Thank you for recognizing that even the writer in the Bible used reason and rational thought to see how all humans know right from wrong.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
“Do What Thou Wilt Shall be the Whole of the Law”: The Satanic Mandate
Without restraint, the people will rage.
'DO WHAT THOU WILT' : THE SATANIC MANDATE (19justinbrown88.yolasite.com)
That kind of freedom is nowhere biblical except for those who want to throw off the commandments of God, like Satan, the demons, and his followers.
Look at Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
However, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not have to mean to fall into degrading sin as it's expression.
Licentious liberty is what the hedonistic people think of today though...
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
So those who follow the satanic mandate and promise liberty therein are themselves slaves of corruption
Without restraint, the people will rage.
'DO WHAT THOU WILT' : THE SATANIC MANDATE (19justinbrown88.yolasite.com)
That kind of freedom is nowhere biblical except for those who want to throw off the commandments of God, like Satan, the demons, and his followers.
Look at Psalm 2
1 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
However, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not have to mean to fall into degrading sin as it's expression.
Licentious liberty is what the hedonistic people think of today though...
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
So those who follow the satanic mandate and promise liberty therein are themselves slaves of corruption
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RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Imposing such extreme theological interpretations on the DOI is unwarranted and unsupportable.
There is no suggestion that the Creator himself is included in the juridical limits identified for earthly government. No laws presume to protect against acts of God, as though they could judge God and hold him accountable. Neither does the DOI.
Conflating earthly life and eternal life does not follow from either the DOI or the Bible. There is no promise of eternally preserving this earthly life in either. That would be a perversion of the Gospel.
The DOI does not preclude capital punishment any more than the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.” Those who so misinterpret the latter ignore clear Scripture, and according to the standards of the stated objections, would have God violating his own command.
Such objections to the DOI formulation are unfair and unreasonable, worse than trying to discredit the Bible because it doesn’t represent pi to enough significant figures, as if it is a science textbook.
The only thing imposed is consistency. God IS the standard.
Look, the fact of the matter is there are no passages giving men the unalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
So at least we can say the idea is not biblically supported.
Now we can look at Scripture to see if the notion is denounced.
I believe it is, but admit a lot is interpretive. I believe man is created to glorify God (not to pursue his own happiness). I believe life is a blessing, not a right. And of course I reject the idea that men have a right to liberty (this one is actually anti-biblical....but American Christianity does not care).
I am glad that you are opposed to things like the death penalty (we have that in common). But where you view life as an unalienable right I see life as a grace.
Yes I'm slow.
There is nothing in that bible quote that gives human reason and human rational thought as the source.
It is inspired from God.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
What we agree on is that God and His Word are the standard.
What we disagree on is that the DOI, which quite correctly and commendably recognizes the Creator as the source of life (and virtually everything else), somehow excludes God in the process of that important and fundamental recognition.
I say it does no such thing nor does it even try, whereas you seem to think it does so catastrophically.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, as we’ve both tried several times but can find no common ground to work from, even with the double fundamental agreement, that is, God and His Word.
See you in the next debate.
Who knows? Maybe we’ll be on the same side in it. 
We do agree that God is the source of life.What we agree on is that God and His Word are the standard.
What we disagree on is that the DOI, which quite correctly and commendably recognizes the Creator as the source of life (and virtually everything else), somehow excludes God in the process of that important and fundamental recognition.
I say it does no such thing nor does it even try, whereas you seem to think it does so catastrophically.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree, as we’ve both tried several times but can find no common ground to work from, even with the double fundamental agreement, that is, God and His Word.
See you in the next debate.
Where we disagree is in your claim that man has an unalienable right to that life.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
We agree on His being the source, but not on what that implies. We disagree on what the phrase “unalienable right” means, how it applies. We disagree on the interpretation, on the limitations it asserts.
The DOI is a political document aimed at men, not God. Specifically, it is in contrast to the tyrannical notion that a king or government is above God or is God, as though they endow men.
It does not follow that an individual would instead be independent of God or be his own God, as though he endowed himself. That seems to be the underlying concern, that the sovereignty of God is somehow challenged. But that idea is just not there.
You are confusing our arguments.
I never claimed that men are independent of God. Quite the opposite.
Where we disagree is why it is wrong to take a human life
You say it is because man has an unalienable right to his life. But I (and Scripture) say it is because God has made man in His image.
You are confusing prohibition towards something with having a right to the thing protected.
The Bible's reason for prohibiting murder points to God, not to man.
If Man has an unalienable right to life then there is no sense whereby that right will be alienated from man. This is what "unalienable" means.
But Scripture never speaks of life as a human right Men are prohibited from murder because of Imago Dei, not because of man's rights.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:27