The Beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ

[Van]

Pentecost is when the baptism of the Spirit is typically believed to have occurred.

The major disagreement is when the Spirit was given as the Helper occurred.
Pentecost or at John 20:21-23, Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The general assembly's first member was the thief on the cross.l But among those physically still alive the indwelling started at Pentecost.

I already addressed that John 20:22 was emblematic of the indwelling that would occur to enable the Apostles to complete their mission.

 

[37818]

.

The general assembly's first member was the thief on the cross.l But among those physically still alive the indwelling started at Pentecost.

I already addressed that John 20:22 was emblematic of the indwelling that would occur to enable the Apostles to complete their mission.

No.
After John the Baptist, and then two of his followers.
John 1:37, And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

 

[JD731]

The cornerstone was laid when God the Father raised the Son out of the dead and renewing of Holy Spirit. The Son then poured forth that Holy Spirit, first to the apostles then others were added.

IMHO

Thank you Percho, for your comments and thank you for your attention to the words of scripture and understanding that believing them and using reason and logic to know the doctrines of the faith is imperative in understanding them. Having said that, I believe this doctrine is made simple by believing.

Consider this:

18 And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I have underlined what few people in this world will believe. They will not believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a birth, even when you cannot make that statement say anything else. So, logically speaking with reason, his resurrection from the dead tells us that he being firstmembers of the church are dependent on this resurrection.

It is important to note that we learn two things here.
1) Jesus is the firstborn son of God from the dead at his resurrection
2) This event, being resurrected from the dead and being the firstborn makes him head of the church, who are all born again, and gives him the preeminence in the family.

It is important to note that he is not the firstborn son of God. That is not what is said. He is firstborn son of God from the dead never to die again.
Jesus Christ was born of the flesh and died.
Logic! The church had it's beginning the same time as that Jesus rose from the dead.

Logic and reason =If Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God from the dead and the head of the church because of the birth, then one can consider that all members of the church are born again, making them sons of God because of a new birth.

We know Jesus Christ lived on earth before he died and rose again from the dead. He was not the church at that time. If he were then this verse, Col 1:18, would make no sense.

I am out of time now but have more to say on this line of reasoning and will come back later with additional information of the subject..

 

[Van]

.
No.
After John the Baptist, and then two of his followers.
John 1:37, And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

That says nothing concerning being born anew before Jesus died. Jesus is choosing His disciples, they are converting from their expectation of a coming Messiah, to believing Jesus is the Messiah!

 

[37818]

That says nothing concerning being born anew before Jesus died. Jesus is choosing His disciples, they are converting from their expectation of a coming Messiah, to believing Jesus is the Messiah!

Before the post resurrection Pentecost, only John the Baptist was already indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15, For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[JD731]

Before the post resurrection Pentecost, only John the Baptist was already indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15, For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being eternally indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If John the Baptist could have been indwelt with the Spirit, so could others. Why do you think Jesus had to die? Thnk!

 

[37818]

.

Why do you think Jesus had to die?

To be the propitiation. Romans 3:24-26, Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Van]

Before the post resurrection Pentecost, only John the Baptist was already indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:15, For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Here you claim to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" means to be indwelt. However just as the OT saints had to wait to be made perfect, John the Baptist was NOT made perfect and therefore NOT indwelt until after Christ died. He went to Abraham's bosom when He died. No one was washed with the blood of the Lamb before the Lamb shed His blood. Time travel theology is fiction. No one was indwelt until they were made perfect, washed in His blood. When we undergo the washing of regeneration, we are born anew, as a spiritual child of God, and then, and only then, we are indwelt, sealed in Christ with a pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. The gospel of Christ.

 

[JesusFan]

Here you claim to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" means to be indwelt. However just as the OT saints had to wait to be made perfect, John the Baptist was NOT made perfect and therefore NOT indwelt until after Christ died. He went to Abraham's bosom when He died. No one was washed with the blood of the Lamb before the Lamb shed His blood. Time travel theology is fiction. No one was indwelt until they were made perfect, washed in His blood. When we undergo the washing of regeneration, we are born anew, as a spiritual child of God, and then, and only then, we are indwelt, sealed in Christ with a pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. The gospel of Christ.

John was filled with the Spirit while in his mothers womb, as being the prophesied one to come and go before the Lord

 

[Van]

John was filled with the Spirit while in his mothers womb, as being the prophesied one to come and go before the Lord

LOL, that is NOT the issue. Does the verse say John was indwelt with the Holy Spirit as all born anew believers are indwelt?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I see what's going on. You were/ are thinking of 'the church' as meaning the moment when two dispensations change their name from one to the other, and so it would be the division called "the Gospel"(?).

As far as that benchmark, I see where the Lord said,

"The Law and the Prophets were until John:
since that time the Kingdom of God is Preached, and every man presseth into it."

Then, I see the word 'church' that you have in the following posts and was using it to refer to all the saved folks in the New Testament Era. Those I call the Kingdom of God that every saved soul is born into, at the time of their New Birth.

I see the word 'church' in the Bible as being 'what it meant to everyone then' and that was 'an organized, called out assembly that is always local and self-governed', that Jesus Divinely Founded and Continued to build, or edify, as it says in Matthew 16:18;

"And I Say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon This Rock I Will Build My Church;
and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

"And I Say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter (in the Greek his name means a small stone),

then the word Jesus uses to refer to Himself as "this Rock", means a huge, massive slab of foundation rock, )"and upon This Rock" (so, it is a play on words in the Greek ('you're a small pebble and I Am a massive boulder, Jesus is saying.)

In other words, "I Will Build My Church; (Jesus' Divinely Designed and Originated kind of called out assembly, which were made up of Scripturally baptized saved souls, who were to carry out the Divine Ordinances, the Great Commission, and Worship God, not forsaking the assembling of themselves together".

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25.

And Jesus Promised His Ordained assembly of the Apostles there listening to Him that the influence of Satan was never going to completely overrun all of His various church bodies spread around the globe and spread over the centuries, where He said, "the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Jesus is at that time speaking to His assembled church body that He Originated, using the Greek word for a called assembly, and in this case He had Gathered His closest followers who He had called out to serve Him as what He then called "my church", meaning Jesus' Own type of called out assembly that He was "Building", by Giving His Apostles the Word of God and the Gospel and the Divine Ordnances.

Jesus began "Building" For His version of what a church or local body of specific people where to be comprised of in His case, Jesus Chose those men who had been baptized by the Authority of God by the one man who had, because he was Sent by God to baptize, and that was John the Baptist.

So, when Jesus called the Apostles together, after He had chosen them, they assembled in an official Organized corporate entity, Jesus church assemble there in Jerusalem, with Jesus as their Head.

That is exactly what is said and meant, in I Corinthians 12:28;

"And God hath Set some in the church, first Apostles,
secondarily Prophets, thirdly Teachers, after that Miracles,
then Gifts of Healings, Helps, Governments, Diversities of Tongues."

That is where the Bible says Jesus began His kind of churches.

I am interested in when Jesus founded his church and I see you are too. But you did not say when he founded it in your view.

You have not weighed in yet. When did the church of Jesus Christ have it's beginning, according to you?

 

[percho]

Filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same thing as being eternally indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If John the Baptist could have been indwelt with the Spirit, so could others. Why do you think Jesus had to die? Thnk!

Bingo, consider the following;

“He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing[fn] in Him would receive; for the Holy[fn] Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[percho]

Thank you Percho, for your comments and thank you for your attention to the words of scripture and understanding that believing them and using reason and logic to know the doctrines of the faith is imperative in understanding them. Having said that, I believe this doctrine is made simple by believing.

Consider this:

18 And he (Jesus) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I have underlined what few people in this world will believe. They will not believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a birth, even when you cannot make that statement say anything else. So, logically speaking with reason, his resurrection from the dead tells us that he being firstmembers of the church are dependent on this resurrection.

It is important to note that we learn two things here.
1) Jesus is the firstborn son of God from the dead at his resurrection
2) This event, being resurrected from the dead and being the firstborn makes him head of the church, who are all born again, and gives him the preeminence in the family.

It is important to note that he is not the firstborn son of God. That is not what is said. He is firstborn son of God from the dead never to die again.
Jesus Christ was born of the flesh and died.
Logic! The church had it's beginning the same time as that Jesus rose from the dead.

Logic and reason =If Jesus Christ is the firstborn son of God from the dead and the head of the church because of the birth, then one can consider that all members of the church are born again, making them sons of God because of a new birth.

We know Jesus Christ lived on earth before he died and rose again from the dead. He was not the church at that time. If he were then this verse, Col 1:18, would make no sense.

I am out of time now but have more to say on this line of reasoning and will come back later with additional information of the subject..

I liked yet have some thoughts/questions.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

Does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit baptized us into the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above, Mt. Zion?

Does that then put us into being in the following state?
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Also in the following state?
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first-fruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Is the redemption of our body also seen in the following?
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Also?
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Is it at the coming of Jesus when he changes our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, when we are conformed it the image of his Son?

Is that when we are truly born again by the Spirit in us? Consider also. Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Is that the manifestation of the sons of God?

Does Jerusalem above, Zion ,at the coming of the Lord. give birth into the kingdom of God? Is the kingdom born out of the church?

 

[JD731]

I see what's going on. You were/ are thinking of 'the church' as meaning the moment when two dispensations change their name from one to the other, and so it would be the division called "the Gospel"(?).

As far as that benchmark, I see where the Lord said,

"The Law and the Prophets were until John:
since that time the Kingdom of God is Preached, and every man presseth into it."

Then, I see the word 'church' that you have in the following posts and was using it to refer to all the saved folks in the New Testament Era. Those I call the Kingdom of God that every saved soul is born into, at the time of their New Birth.

I see the word 'church' in the Bible as being 'what it meant to everyone then' and that was 'an organized, called out assembly that is always local and self-governed', that Jesus Divinely Founded and Continued to build, or edify, as it says in Matthew 16:18;

"And I Say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon This Rock I Will Build My Church;
and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

"And I Say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter (in the Greek his name means a small stone),

then the word Jesus uses to refer to Himself as "this Rock", means a huge, massive slab of foundation rock, )"and upon This Rock" (so, it is a play on words in the Greek ('you're a small pebble and I Am a massive boulder, Jesus is saying.)

In other words, "I Will Build My Church; (Jesus' Divinely Designed and Originated kind of called out assembly, which were made up of Scripturally baptized saved souls, who were to carry out the Divine Ordinances, the Great Commission, and Worship God, not forsaking the assembling of themselves together".

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is;
but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25.

And Jesus Promised His Ordained assembly of the Apostles there listening to Him that the influence of Satan was never going to completely overrun all of His various church bodies spread around the globe and spread over the centuries, where He said, "the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it."

Jesus is at that time speaking to His assembled church body that He Originated, using the Greek word for a called assembly, and in this case He had Gathered His closest followers who He had called out to serve Him as what He then called "my church", meaning Jesus' Own type of called out assembly that He was "Building", by Giving His Apostles the Word of God and the Gospel and the Divine Ordnances.

Jesus began "Building" For His version of what a church or local body of specific people where to be comprised of in His case, Jesus Chose those men who had been baptized by the Authority of God by the one man who had, because he was Sent by God to baptize, and that was John the Baptist.

So, when Jesus called the Apostles together, after He had chosen them, they assembled in an official Organized corporate entity, Jesus church assemble there in Jerusalem, with Jesus as their Head.

That is exactly what is said and meant, in I Corinthians 12:28;

"And God hath Set some in the church, first Apostles,
secondarily Prophets, thirdly Teachers, after that Miracles,
then Gifts of Healings, Helps, Governments, Diversities of Tongues."

That is where the Bible says Jesus began His kind of churches.

Alan, John the Baptist was not a Christian. He baptized Israel. There was no church during his days of ministry. The Christian faith is founded upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That was an event in history post John the Baptist. Your theology is both illogical and unreasonable and proves you follow the counsel of your teachers and not the scriptures. I speak as a friend and encourage you to reexamine what you have been told. Ask yourself why you think it is proper to teach something contrary to a passage that says exactly when the church of Jesus Christ had it's beginning.

Here it is again.

Colossians 1:18

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

Your teaching says this is not true.