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The Believer's Conditional Security Refuted
- Thread starter James_Newman
- Start date
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I'm back.
Last Sunday night, I typed a long post reply to James, but it said it was an error because of over limited 10,000 words. I typed over 12,000 words of a post. Then, I click 'back' for edit. Guess what? It was blank or gone. Waste my time to make a post all over again. This time, I will try to make post with less than 10,000 words.
James Newman,
you say,
I would like to discuss on two things - 'eternal life' & 'kingdom of God/heaven'. I want to show you a passage talks about both eternal life and kingdom of God/heaven.
In Matthew 19:16-30 talks about the rich man came to Chrst, asked Him, what shall do to have eternal life. Christ told him, what to do to have eternal life.
Verse 16 - "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I have eternal life?
The rich man doesn't ask Christ about millennial, because the doctrine of millennial was unheard during rich man's time. It was not yet exist till over 1,500 years later. Also, none of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the Old Testament books. Thirdly, Christ, himself never teaching on millennial in his three years of ministry, not even a single word 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the four gospel books of Christ's words. The rich man understoods word, 'eternal life' simple mean there shall be life beyond death. I am sure that the rich man believed there shall be life beyond death. Also, he understoods a word, 'eternal' means forever and ever without end.
Verse 17 - "And he said unto him, Why callst thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Christ told him, if he desires to have eternal life, then he ought to keep the commandments.
Verse 18,19- "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Homour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The rich man asked Christ, which one of the commandments, he should to do. Christ told him of the Ten Commandments.
Verse 20- "The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"
The rich man told Christ, he did kept the commandments in his youth life, but he ask Christ, what missing thing that he should do.
Verse 21 - "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect(completely & being mature), go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and COME and FOLLOW me."
Christ told him, if he desires to have eternal life, then he would have to give up his possession and give things to the poor, then COME and FOLLOW Christ.
Guess what?
Verse 22 - "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
When after he heard Christ's words, he was bitter and walked away from Christ. He refused give up his possessions, and not come to follow Christ. The rich man had no faith in Christ. He worried over his own earthly things, not want to lose his possessions.
Verse 23,24 - "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Some dispensationalists teaching both 'kingdom of God' & 'kingdom of heaven' are different meaning. Does Christ actual saying of them? Nope. Clear, Christ taught us both are same meaning.
Christ uses two characters of camel and rich man. Camel's character shows that, its is humble, no complain, no worry, patience, and faith. Camels are in the Middle East areas. They carry heavy load on their backs, carrying them while journey across desert in the very hot sunny day. Camels are no complain, always patience carry heavy load while walking across desert a long journey, not worry about their life.
Christ describes rich man's character, show that, he is pride, selfish, worry too much, easy complain, no patience, no faith. That why the rich man had difficult to enter into the kingdom of heaven, because of no faith in Christ.
Obivous, the rich man is now in hell because of no faith and refused to follow Christ.
Verse 25 - When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be SAVED?"
Verse 26 - "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this impossible; but WITH GOD all things are possible."
Christ's point is, depending upon earthly things are impossible, means that earthly things & humans cannot answer our hope, because everything shall be passed away, they are temporaily. We have depend and faith upon God, because He is eternal, He have everything for our answer and hope.
Verse 27 - "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore?"
Peter told Christ that, He and his disciples already forsaked their things and come to followed Christ, what shall the consequence or result, they shall received.
Verse 28 - "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelves tribes of Israel."
Premills saying of this verse proving talk about millennial kingdom that the 12 disciples shall sit on 12 thrones, judge the 12 tribes of Israel. One thing of this verse, there is NOT a single word - 'a thousand years'. Christ never say of 'a thousand years' anywhere in the four gospel books. This verse speak of disciples' future eternality inheritance and reward of their eternality reigning with Christ after their result of followed Christ in their lifetime.
I better hold this, because of limited numbers of words in this post. I better continue in the next post. To be continued...
Last Sunday night, I typed a long post reply to James, but it said it was an error because of over limited 10,000 words. I typed over 12,000 words of a post. Then, I click 'back' for edit. Guess what? It was blank or gone. Waste my time to make a post all over again. This time, I will try to make post with less than 10,000 words.
James Newman,
you say,
The real issue would be the kingdom of God. If the kingdom of God. If the kingdom of God is not the millennial kingdom of Christ, and is instead 'heaven' or the eternal state of believers, then Dan Corner's book is probably right. You will lose your salvation if you sin. But the kingdom of God is probably the most discussed subject in the Bible, it shouldn't be too hard to show the truth of the kingdom from scripture
I would like to discuss on two things - 'eternal life' & 'kingdom of God/heaven'. I want to show you a passage talks about both eternal life and kingdom of God/heaven.
In Matthew 19:16-30 talks about the rich man came to Chrst, asked Him, what shall do to have eternal life. Christ told him, what to do to have eternal life.
Verse 16 - "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I have eternal life?
The rich man doesn't ask Christ about millennial, because the doctrine of millennial was unheard during rich man's time. It was not yet exist till over 1,500 years later. Also, none of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the Old Testament books. Thirdly, Christ, himself never teaching on millennial in his three years of ministry, not even a single word 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the four gospel books of Christ's words. The rich man understoods word, 'eternal life' simple mean there shall be life beyond death. I am sure that the rich man believed there shall be life beyond death. Also, he understoods a word, 'eternal' means forever and ever without end.
Verse 17 - "And he said unto him, Why callst thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
Christ told him, if he desires to have eternal life, then he ought to keep the commandments.
Verse 18,19- "He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Homour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The rich man asked Christ, which one of the commandments, he should to do. Christ told him of the Ten Commandments.
Verse 20- "The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"
The rich man told Christ, he did kept the commandments in his youth life, but he ask Christ, what missing thing that he should do.
Verse 21 - "Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect(completely & being mature), go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and COME and FOLLOW me."
Christ told him, if he desires to have eternal life, then he would have to give up his possession and give things to the poor, then COME and FOLLOW Christ.
Guess what?
Verse 22 - "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."
When after he heard Christ's words, he was bitter and walked away from Christ. He refused give up his possessions, and not come to follow Christ. The rich man had no faith in Christ. He worried over his own earthly things, not want to lose his possessions.
Verse 23,24 - "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Some dispensationalists teaching both 'kingdom of God' & 'kingdom of heaven' are different meaning. Does Christ actual saying of them? Nope. Clear, Christ taught us both are same meaning.
Christ uses two characters of camel and rich man. Camel's character shows that, its is humble, no complain, no worry, patience, and faith. Camels are in the Middle East areas. They carry heavy load on their backs, carrying them while journey across desert in the very hot sunny day. Camels are no complain, always patience carry heavy load while walking across desert a long journey, not worry about their life.
Christ describes rich man's character, show that, he is pride, selfish, worry too much, easy complain, no patience, no faith. That why the rich man had difficult to enter into the kingdom of heaven, because of no faith in Christ.
Obivous, the rich man is now in hell because of no faith and refused to follow Christ.
Verse 25 - When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be SAVED?"
Verse 26 - "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this impossible; but WITH GOD all things are possible."
Christ's point is, depending upon earthly things are impossible, means that earthly things & humans cannot answer our hope, because everything shall be passed away, they are temporaily. We have depend and faith upon God, because He is eternal, He have everything for our answer and hope.
Verse 27 - "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore?"
Peter told Christ that, He and his disciples already forsaked their things and come to followed Christ, what shall the consequence or result, they shall received.
Verse 28 - "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelves tribes of Israel."
Premills saying of this verse proving talk about millennial kingdom that the 12 disciples shall sit on 12 thrones, judge the 12 tribes of Israel. One thing of this verse, there is NOT a single word - 'a thousand years'. Christ never say of 'a thousand years' anywhere in the four gospel books. This verse speak of disciples' future eternality inheritance and reward of their eternality reigning with Christ after their result of followed Christ in their lifetime.
I better hold this, because of limited numbers of words in this post. I better continue in the next post. To be continued...
DeafPosttrib
New Member
To be continued.
Verse 29 - "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, AND SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE."
Christ promised us, if we give everything what we have, and forsake world, and come to follow Christ, shall receive reward, and SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Christ doesn't saying that we shall have 'millennial life'. He simple saying that we shall have eternal life- without end and no limited of years.
Obivous, this is conditional of eternal life unless if we give everything, and come to follow Christ. This is not speak of works, but of FAITH.
verse 30 - "But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."
Christ's point is, most people want to be fame, number one, show that they are fill of pride. But, most of them shall be end up become lowly.
Adolf Hither is a good example. Hitler was fill of pride. He thinks he is the best and world's powerful person than all people. At the end of hsi life, he fell down, and commit suicide by himself, proved that he is ended up lowly, clear, he is now in hell.
Also, Christ say, MANY were 'called', but FEW are 'chosen'. Why? Because at the first place, many were called by God, same with Christ did told to the rich man to give up and to follow him, that was called upon rich man. But he refused.
Same with Matthew 7:13-14 telling us, MANY go on the wide road on the way to destruction - everlasting fire. FEW go on the narrow road on the way to everlasting life. That why there are FEW of them are truly 'chosen' at the end of their life. Christ commands us, that we ought humble our life, not being thinking of 'me' or 'I', Think of Jesus, others, then last -'you' . Common word of "Joy", Christians saying of it into three words-
J - Jesus
O- Others
Y- You
Show us, that we must deny our own life, give everything what we WANT, forsake them, come and to follow Christ. That is the FAITH, not works.
Earlier, Rev.mitchell said of 'kingdom of God/heaven':
He is right.
Nothing find anywhere in the Bible suggests that the kingdom of God/heaven is a temporaily or millennial kingdom. But it speaks of the GOSPEL.
Use our common sense.
What if we worry over our own things, and lacking in faith in God, and not come to follow the Lord, want to stay our own original position, where these, we belonging. Then, we shall NOT have eternal life. We shall go to everlasting fire, IF we do not come and follow Christ.
Simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Verse 29 - "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, AND SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE."
Christ promised us, if we give everything what we have, and forsake world, and come to follow Christ, shall receive reward, and SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. Christ doesn't saying that we shall have 'millennial life'. He simple saying that we shall have eternal life- without end and no limited of years.
Obivous, this is conditional of eternal life unless if we give everything, and come to follow Christ. This is not speak of works, but of FAITH.
verse 30 - "But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."
Christ's point is, most people want to be fame, number one, show that they are fill of pride. But, most of them shall be end up become lowly.
Adolf Hither is a good example. Hitler was fill of pride. He thinks he is the best and world's powerful person than all people. At the end of hsi life, he fell down, and commit suicide by himself, proved that he is ended up lowly, clear, he is now in hell.
Also, Christ say, MANY were 'called', but FEW are 'chosen'. Why? Because at the first place, many were called by God, same with Christ did told to the rich man to give up and to follow him, that was called upon rich man. But he refused.
Same with Matthew 7:13-14 telling us, MANY go on the wide road on the way to destruction - everlasting fire. FEW go on the narrow road on the way to everlasting life. That why there are FEW of them are truly 'chosen' at the end of their life. Christ commands us, that we ought humble our life, not being thinking of 'me' or 'I', Think of Jesus, others, then last -'you' . Common word of "Joy", Christians saying of it into three words-
J - Jesus
O- Others
Y- You
Show us, that we must deny our own life, give everything what we WANT, forsake them, come and to follow Christ. That is the FAITH, not works.
Earlier, Rev.mitchell said of 'kingdom of God/heaven':
It includes salvation, submission to him, the gospel of the cross, his reign, his rule, his redemption, his resurrection, his death, his burial, etc.
He is right.
Nothing find anywhere in the Bible suggests that the kingdom of God/heaven is a temporaily or millennial kingdom. But it speaks of the GOSPEL.
Use our common sense.
What if we worry over our own things, and lacking in faith in God, and not come to follow the Lord, want to stay our own original position, where these, we belonging. Then, we shall NOT have eternal life. We shall go to everlasting fire, IF we do not come and follow Christ.
Simple and plain.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Also, there is another refer passage of Matt. 19:16-30: Find in Luke 18:18-30 telling the same thing.
Notice Luke 18:30 says: "Who shall not receive manifold more in this PRESENT TIME, and in the world to come LIFE EVERLASTING.
Bible teaches us, there is only two ages, we are in this present age. Present age have been lasting since from the creation to now for about 6000 years. THEN 'the world to come' is the next age is ETERNALITY, not temporaily.
When Christ shall come with his angels, this present world shall be burned away with fire, and then He shall create a new earth, and new heavens, then eternality will be last froever and ever, that what we are looking for.And this is the blessed hope of Titus 2:13.
The rich man doesn't ask Christ of temporaily or millennial, he asked Him about eternal life.
Obivous, this is speak of eternal salvation, not temporaily salvation according what J.J. said.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Notice Luke 18:30 says: "Who shall not receive manifold more in this PRESENT TIME, and in the world to come LIFE EVERLASTING.
Bible teaches us, there is only two ages, we are in this present age. Present age have been lasting since from the creation to now for about 6000 years. THEN 'the world to come' is the next age is ETERNALITY, not temporaily.
When Christ shall come with his angels, this present world shall be burned away with fire, and then He shall create a new earth, and new heavens, then eternality will be last froever and ever, that what we are looking for.And this is the blessed hope of Titus 2:13.
The rich man doesn't ask Christ of temporaily or millennial, he asked Him about eternal life.
Obivous, this is speak of eternal salvation, not temporaily salvation according what J.J. said.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
James_Newman said:Is that not the gospel? Do you tell people on the street, 'hey, believe on Jesus Christ and you might get to be saved?' What is security? If a person believes that the work of Christ saved them, they believe in eternal security, whether or not they know what it is called. When you say 'I believe that Christ saves me IF I DO blah blah blah' then by definition what you believe is conditional security, otherwise known as works salvation which will not save you.
I wouldn't tell people that because I'm not a Calvinist.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
James_Newman said:Hey, I can understand if you are unwilling to put your beliefs to the test. Every verse that points to works for salvation can be applied correctly to the kingdom of God. It is the erroneous interpretation that the kingdom of God is 'eternity in heaven' that leads to these confusing doctrines where we are saved by faith apart from works but if we don't have works we don't really have faith etc... If we teach free grace salvation through faith, and teach the proper fear of God and accountability for sin at the judgment seat of Christ, 'practicing' our faith does produce fruit. There is no need to water down the grace of God to account for believers who seem unable to maintain good works.
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
If the kingdom of God is the free gift of eternal salvation, then yes indeed you better be good.
The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same and they last for eternoity. The "Kingdom of Heaven" appears 31 times in the Bible, ALL IN MATHEW. "Kingdom of God" appears 68 times in all four gospels and in Acts and 1 Cor, Gal, Col and 2 Thes.
Are you claiming that the book of Mathew teaches something that no other book in the NT teaches? I think not.
The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are one and the same and they last for eternoity. The "Kingdom of Heaven" appears 31 times in the Bible, ALL IN MATHEW. "Kingdom of God" appears 68 times in all four gospels and in Acts and 1 Cor, Gal, Col and 2 Thes.
Are you claiming that the book of Mathew teaches something that no other book in the NT teaches? I think not.
Well the kingdom of heaven is actually plural in the original language, and why it is mistranslated in every translation I am not sure, but the literal translation is the kingdom of the heavens.
That is only used in Matthew, with the exception John uses it in chapter 3 according to the earliest manuscript that is available.
But yes the kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God are speaking of the same truth. The Kingdom of God in its broadest sense is His entire creation. Our solar system, galaxy and all the others that are out there. He's King over it all. And no that Kingdom will have no end.
However in the revelation that God has given to the focus is not always on the entire Kingdom, but on this section of the kingdom we call earth.
The kingdom of the heavens and the kingdom of God in most if not all references is speaking to the governmental aspect of the earth.
And no Matthew is not teaching something totally different than everyone else he just uses different terminology to describe the same thing.