Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Tune in right at the 12:00 minute mark. There is discussion of how Calvinists say God doesn't cause but determines everything we do. Here I think they make a mistake. Cause would be the same as "determines" but this is not the Calvinist position of Owen and the post Reformation Puritan Calvinists. I believe it is of some of the hyper-Cals and Primitive Baptists who post on here though. Regardless, the point I am making is, if you read carefully Owen's argument against Arminianism, his point is that our own natural free will is the cause of our depravity. You can say God is responsible if you want to say he knew we would be like that on our own and still allowed it - but to say God caused that goes further than those guys went. If anyone can point me to a reference from the Puritan era Calvinist writers where they claim that God directly causes our depraved nature rather than it results from being left alone I would appreciate the reference. This is not a challenge, but I am sincerely asking for help in this area.
I do not disagree with you in that God does not cause man to sin we do quite well on our own. But where the problem comes in with the calvinist position is that they say that while man can choose to sin he can not choose to trust in God. That is an illogical position to hold.
If God holds man responsible for not trusting in His son then He is either being disingenuous or man actually can make those free choices.
God being omniscient knows all that man will freely do but foreknowledge does not mean cause.
One major difference between you and I is that you keep referring to what men, Owen, Edwards, the Puritan's etc, have said and I just go with what the bible shows us.
I do disagree with you that it is just the hyper-Cals and Primitive Baptists that hold to God determines all things. Those that hold to the TULIP/DoG would logically hold to the deterministic view. I know you say you disagree with a few of the DoG points but since they require all to be held for that view to be consistent I am not sure why you still call yourself a calvinist.