The Best Wine

[tinytim]

Although I do not personally drink, I think its very funny that people here think that at the Wedding at Cana , there would be Grape Juice and not wine.

Didn't Mr. Welch invent a time machine also? :laugh:

If so, Maybe he got in it, went back to cana and shared his news with Jesus.

It's amazing how many will twist and distort history in order to get it to line up with their standards.... That is called liberalism.

Yes, liberals add to the word of God. Making the Bible say Juice instead of wine is adding to the Bible.

Wine is wine.

BTW, I don't drink, and I don't think Christians should... It is a stumbling block to many, and as Charles Meadows has already pointed out, there are many better medicines today than alcohol.
But I am not going to condemn a Christian for a glass of wine, there are too many other things wrong with the church today....

 

[annsni]

It's interesting that the ONLY proof that wine means juice is the fact that it is spoken of in a positive light in the Bible. When it's spoken of negatively, the word suddenly changes meaning and is now meaning alcohol. That is not a good interpretation because there ARE verses that CLEARLY speak of alcohol in a positive light and not grape juice. Those who say that wine means juice are fooling themselves and not following the Word of God.

You know what my husband says about all of this (he abstains from all alcohol, by the way) - "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels." 2 Timothy 2:23 This is a foolish argument with lots of ignorance and all it's doing is breeding quarrels. I feel that no one is going to convince anyone else so this should just be done with now.

Ann

 

[Helen]

Ann, you are absolutely right except that if you check, you will see that this thread has had 1200 views. People are watching and reading and the influence our words have can be decisive in some lives. Presenting the truth, in whatever subject is being discussed, is important.

The legalism and poor exegisis which causes some to claim that wine is a corruption and Jesus never made it and wouldn't make it, etc., is something that really does need to be countered. People end up feeling guilty over what they should not feel guilty about, because of what men have said to them. I would far rather they pay attention to the Lord and not the rules of men.

Still, your post is a good warning, and thank you.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Our words can influence, yes.

The ones who say there is nothing wrong with drinking are putting a drink in the hand of one who may get behind the wheel and kill another after drinking.

It may cause one to be turned from God for all eternity.

Moderation advocates are putting a stumbling block in front of many by the lies that spew forth from their mouths saying God endorses alcoholic beverages.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The tongue is an unruly evil, yes. We bless God with it, and turn around and curse man.

Yes, our words are powerful. They can destroy a person's character through tale-bearing. They can cause another to end up on a road of destruction when we speak hypocrisies such as 'Jesus drank wine, so we can too.'

Yes, the lies about alcohol being given by God to His Children is turning many into drunks, drunks that will never enter into the joys of the Lord.

The lies about alcohol being given by God are causing many to fulfill the lusts of the flesh rather than walk in the Spirit.

Yes, the words we speak can be very dangerous if we are speaking from human nature and not from the Spirit of God.

 

[gb93433]

Yes, liberals add to the word of God. Making the Bible say Juice instead of wine is adding to the Bible.

Wine is wine.

Can you believe they actually think of themselves as conservatives? So much for the conservative resurgence. They are actually adding to the liberal population who do not study and simply preach and teach what they have heard.

 

[gb93433]

First, almost every civilization of that era knew how to make safe water. Even then water was not always the main problem as it is today. Remember, they didn’t have the pollution problems that we have today—all the way from acid rain, smog, litter, over-population in many countries, improper sanitation, etc.

If your information is correct then why did the Romans use lead pipes. They did have improper sanitation in their cities. Where do you think all the waste went in the large cities. There are people dying and getting sick today due to bad practices. The missionaries are helping to end that problem.

Could you explain why in 1993 a missionary I met had a husband who died due to poor water? They were in a remote area. Can you explain why so many missionaries have long term health problems after leaving and retiring?

When I went camping in my younger days with my father we often drank water than ran in streams straight from the source of glaciers, or from mountain streams, brooks deep into the forests. We never had any stomach problems. The water was as pure as any man on earth could find. Just because much of our land has been run over and polluted now doesn’t mean it was that way in Biblical times.

Are you aware of the chemicals in the water and snow?Have you had your body analyzed for chemicals. People today have many chemicals in their bodies which are put there by man due to the chemical companies.

Sometime when you get a chance read the transcript at http://www.pbs.org/tradesecrets/transcript.html

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Didn't Mr. Welch invent a time machine also? :laugh:

If so, Maybe he got in it, went back to cana and shared his news with Jesus.

It's amazing how many will twist and distort history in order to get it to line up with their standards.... That is called liberalism.

Yes, liberals add to the word of God. Making the Bible say Juice instead of wine is adding to the Bible.

Wine is wine.

BTW, I don't drink, and I don't think Christians should... It is a stumbling block to many, and as Charles Meadows has already pointed out, there are many better medicines today than alcohol.
But I am not going to condemn a Christian for a glass of wine, there are too many other things wrong with the church today....

It is adding to the Bible to say wine is alcoholic in every verse of the Bible, when it is plain that some wine was indeed non-alcoholic.

Has the wine deceived you and clouded your mind to the point that you think Christ partook of that which was forbidden?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Yes, the lies about alcohol being given by God to His Children is turning many into drunks, drunks that will never enter into the joys of the Lord.

Just because something can be used in a good or bad way, doesn't make it inherently evil. Imagine this comment:

Yes, the lies about sex being given by God to His Children is turning many into prostitutes and whoremongers, harlots that will never enter into the joys of the Lord.

​

Sex, like alcohol, has its proper place in life. Just because you are against alcohol at all isn't wrong. Placing your view as an overlay to God's word, is.

 

[annsni]

Just because something can be used in a good or bad way, doesn't make it inherently evil. Imagine this comment:

Yes, the lies about sex being given by God to His Children is turning many into prostitutes and whoremongers, harlots that will never enter into the joys of the Lord.

​

Sex, like alcohol, has its proper place in life. Just because you are against alcohol at all isn't wrong. Placing your view as an overlay to God's word, is.

And I think there's WAY more verses on sex in the Bible than alcohol.

 

[DHK]

Even in moderate amounts, alcoholic wine is pleasurable because it is special. Regular grape juice is no more pleasurable or special than other varities of the Juicy-Juice I give my kids in their lunch everyday. Nor is fresh-squeezed grape juice any more pleasurable or special then, say, fresh squeezed pineapple, peach, or pomegranate juice, or even sweetened iced tea with lemon, for a few examples.

Most folks around me don't even like grape juice. And grapes do not grow anywhere nearby. We prefer sweetened iced tea with lemon. That is the tradition around here. Snapple and Lipton are really good brands. A few times the store was out of grape juice. So we used Celestial Seasonings Red Zinger tea for communion, since it is red and contains no devil-hol, like Jesus' blood.

So, because alcoholic "wine" tastes good to you, and grape juice doesn't this is a good reason for you to make the Bible teach what it doesn't really teach. Amazing! You say: "I will twist the Scriptures because I don't like the taste of grape juice." That's pretty lame, don't you think.
DHK

 

[annsni]

So, because alcoholic "wine" tastes good to you, and grape juice doesn't this is a good reason for you to make the Bible teach what it doesn't really teach. Amazing! You say: "I will twist the Scriptures because I don't like the taste of grape juice." That's pretty lame, don't you think.
DHK

I don't see anywhere in ACADEMIC's post that you quoted that says that, because he finds wine tasty that it must be what the Bible is saying. Now you're putting words into a poster's mouth too.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Just because something can be used in a good or bad way, doesn't make it inherently evil. Imagine this comment:

Yes, the lies about sex being given by God to His Children is turning many into prostitutes and whoremongers, harlots that will never enter into the joys of the Lord.

​

Sex, like alcohol, has its proper place in life. Just because you are against alcohol at all isn't wrong. Placing your view as an overlay to God's word, is.

MP, this thread is not about sex. Topics such as sex need to be in the men's or women's fellowship forum and not in the general public.

I would appreciate if you would respect that. Keep the thread on topic, or don't post.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Word of God tells us that our conversation should be that which pleases the Lord. The filth that proceeds from the mouths of many is disgraceful. Including the filth of making my Lord and Savior a winebibber.

 

[Smoky]

Yayin and oinos both mean wine when they are used in the Bible and in extrabiblical literature. You and others comb the scripture looking for single instances where it can be shown that they are grape juice. But they are wine. The ancients drank wine - and few abstained.

-John the Baptist did abstain and the Bible notes it - and it notes that he abstained from oinos, wine. Or does that mean he abstained from garpe juice? Right after this we read that Jesus was called a glutton and a winebibber - so He did NOT abstain. He went to the houses of many to talk about things - and would have partaken of their food and wine. Of course Jesus did not sin in excess.

Charles, I don’t want to answer for DHK but it’s a mistake to claim that yayin or oinos doesn’t refer to anything else accept alcoholic wine. No one is combing the scriptures to prove that they mean only grape juice. They can mean both as the modern term “cider” means today. The word “wine” in older English dictionaries meant both wine and grape juice as well. In our language today, wine usually does mean the alcoholic kind because it has changed. “Cider” however still referrs to both. If you can find just one occurrence of yayin or oinos meaning pure grape juice in the Bible, then that’s enough. Also, indeed John the Baptist probably did abstain from grape juice as well as raisons, fresh grapes, and other products from the grape vine. Being a Nazirite meant more than just abstaining from alcohol. I believe it meant abstaining from many of the good things of life, kinda like a fast. The scriptures separating Jesus from John the Baptist were meant to portray the fact that while John was ascetic and abstained, Jesus was social and partook of the good things of life, like the products made from the grape vine. It’s kinda like John representing the old age and Jesus the new, as in the parable of the old and new wine. It doesn’t mean Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

Numbers 6:2-5 (NASB-U)
"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord, [3] he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. [4] 'All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.
[5] 'All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the Lord; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long.

 

[Gina B]

The Word of God tells us that our conversation should be that which pleases the Lord. The filth that proceeds from the mouths of many is disgraceful. Including the filth of making my Lord and Savior a winebibber.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Because he ate food, they accused him of eating too much and thereby sinning.

Because he drank wine, they accused him of drinking too much and thereby sinning.

Because he was a friend of publicans and sinners, they accused him of being "of the world" instead of working within it.

But the wisdom displayed in discretion in not eating too much, in not drinking too much, in giving the truth to those in need of it, the wisdom of the TRUTH in ALL things was and is and will be good.

I personally think that by saying Christ is a winebibber (a horrible accusation) because he drank wine is the same thing that happened here with the pharisees.

He WAS eating, he WAS drinking, and he WAS friends to publicans and sinners.
It was food, it was wine, and it was publicans and sinners.

But...they took the truth and made it into a lie.
It never says he wasn't REALLY eating or REALLY drinking or REALLY friends with them. There is no denial of that in the text. BECAUSE he did they called it sin by saying it was in excess, on all counts.


[/FONT]

 

[annsni]

Numbers 6:2-5 (NASB-U)
"Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the Lord, [3] he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. [4] 'All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.

In the KJV, it says "He shall separate [himself] from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried."

It's pretty clear here what is meant since wine, vinegar, strong drink, ANY liquid of grapes, grapes themselves or even raisins are all mentioned. If wine is a generic term, (strong drink never is), then why is it mentioned twice - as wine and grape juice?

Ann

 

[ACADEMIC]

I suggest the moderator recuse himself from this particular thread since he obviously cannot moderator objectively.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Because he ate food, they accused him of eating too much and thereby sinning.

Because he drank wine, they accused him of drinking too much and thereby sinning.

Because he was a friend of publicans and sinners, they accused him of being "of the world" instead of working within it.

But the wisdom displayed in discretion in not eating too much, in not drinking too much, in giving the truth to those in need of it, the wisdom of the TRUTH in ALL things was and is and will be good.

I personally think that by saying Christ is a winebibber (a horrible accusation) because he drank wine is the same thing that happened here with the pharisees.

He WAS eating, he WAS drinking, and he WAS friends to publicans and sinners.
It was food, it was wine, and it was publicans and sinners.

But...they took the truth and made it into a lie.
It never says he wasn't REALLY eating or REALLY drinking or REALLY friends with them. There is no denial of that in the text. BECAUSE he did they called it sin by saying it was in excess, on all counts.


[/FONT]

Jesus could not have drank alcoholic wine. His blood was pure and He would not allow that which is impure to enter that bloodstream.

 

[gb93433]

It is adding to the Bible to say wine is alcoholic in every verse of the Bible, when it is plain that some wine was indeed non-alcoholic.

Has the wine deceived you and clouded your mind to the point that you think Christ partook of that which was forbidden?

Give us proof.