The Best Wine

[DHK]

DHK,

I was addressing the mention of Daniel not drinking wine in chapter 10...

Do you think it was because of different kings?
Nazarite Vow? or possibly the mourning mentioned in previous verse. I do lean toward the latter.

Also, as I pointed out, he did not say it was the king's wine in chapter 10. That makes me believe he was speaking of non-alcoholic wine there.

None of the above. Look in the previous chapter.

Daniel 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
--Daniel goes on praying that the Lord would give His people back Jerusalem. He desres that Jehovah would lead them out of captivity and back into Jerusalem. This is the reason for the prayer and fasting. Between this he receives visions.

Daniel 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.

Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Daniel 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

In those days...

Of course! One would have to back up and see what those days was referring to.

Thanks for that insight.

But the wine spoken of here could not have been the king's wine, as Daniel had already purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the kings wine way back in chapter 1.

 

[whatever]

In those days...

Of course! One would have to back up and see what those days was referring to.

Thanks for that insight.

But the wine spoken of here could not have been the king's wine, as Daniel had already purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the kings wine way back in chapter 1.

So why would he give up grape juice while in mourning?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Probably because God told him to give up grape juice.

 

[whatever]

Probably because God told him to give up grape juice.

Is that just speculation or is there somewhere else where God told someone to give up grape juice while in mourning?

 

[Gina B]

I was reading a bit on birds getting drunk on berries and came across this article.

Even if you don't agree they can get drunk, you may snort laughing the way I just did!

http://www.birdwatchersgeneralstore.com/berries.htm

 

[Gwyneth]

I roared with laughter when I read the drunken robins page, it reminde me of a time, long ago when my uncle attempted to make a gallon of wine from some fruit he was given. My aunt was fed up with the buckets, tubes etc. protruding from the back of the settee, where he had it fermenting, so she threw it on the garden........................... the birds were feeding on the worms in the grass, and became quite tipsy, one or two of them tried walking on the washing line, and fell off.... only to recover and fly away after sobering up. Boozy birds and alcoholic worms .

 

[Ransom]

sfic said:

They did not abstain from all meat, they abstained from the king's meat.

Wrong again. Daniel asked to be given vegetables (Dan. 1:12,16), implying instead of meat. Is meat an honorary vegetable, as long as it doesn't come from the king?

 

[Ransom]

DHK said:

Yes they were vegetarians, and they had only water to drink.

Thanks for your help, Captain Obvious.

I didn't ask whether Daniel and his friends were eating a vegetarian diet. I asked whether we should be following his example in that respect as well, or should we just pick and choose from Daniel's example those things that support our preconceived biases.

 

[Ransom]

SFIC said:

Do any of you moderation advocates ever stop to think that God may be warning you to leave fermented grapes and other fermented stuff alone when you see these drunk moose and birds and bees?

I'm used to various crackpots telling me that I should follow the intellectual/moral examples of atheists, Muslims, pagans, and Roman Catholics, as long as those examples confirm their own biases.

But I think this is the first time someone has told me to follow the example of a drunken moose. :laugh:

 

[Diggin in da Word]

sfic said:

They did not abstain from all meat, they abstained from the king's meat.

Wrong again. Daniel asked to be given vegetables (Dan. 1:12,16), implying instead of meat. Is meat an honorary vegetable, as long as it doesn't come from the king?

meat was a generic word in the Bible. It meant food in general. In Genesis, the fruit of the trees was said to be meat for Adam and Eve. So, either meat is a generic term, or God grew a Turkey, Chicken, or possibly Lamb or Beef on those branches. :laugh: They did not abstain from all meat, else they would have starved to death.

 

[annsni]

meat was a generic word in the Bible. It meant food in general. In Genesis, the fruit of the trees was said to be meat for Adam and Eve. So, either meat is a generic term, or God grew a Turkey, Chicken, or possibly Lamb or Beef on those branches. :laugh: They did not abstain from all meat, else they would have starved to death.

No need to starve to death! Vegetarians eat no meat regularly and they're doing just fine.

Personally, I love meat so I can't do that but if I had to, I guess I'd do just fine.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Again, meat was a generic term. Daniel refused the meat that was offerend him of the king's table, and asked for pulse, a vegetable (meat) product that God allowed.

 

[Ransom]

meat was a generic word in the Bible.

So what? Let me say this one more time, slowly this time for the reading-comprehension-challenged.

Daniel. Asked. To. Be. Given. Only. Vegetables.

If. We. Follow. Daniel's. Example. To. Not. Drink. Wine. Then. Do. We. Also. Eat. Only. Vegetables. Too. Or. Do. We. Pick. And. Choose. Which. Part. Of. His. Example. We. Are. Going. To. Follow.

 

[Jerome]

Daniel believed that the king's food and wine would defile him.

Am I understanding right that there was nothing at all unclean about the royal food and wine offered him; but that Daniel had merely given up rich foods for a time to mourn the destruction of Jerusalem, and that the premature breaking of a modified fast would make him unclean?

 

[Ransom]

Jerome asked:

Am I understanding right that there was nothing at all unclean about the royal food and wine offered him;

The book doesn't specifically say, but it's not unreasonable to suppose that some of the meat that was provided was from unclean animals, since the Babylonians obviously were not adherents to the Levitical dietary regulations.

But that proves too much. Nothing in the Law declares wine or alcohol unclean, so Daniel's abstinence from drinking it must have been based on a different reason than strict adherence to the Law.

Furthermore, Dan. 10:3 says that Daniel was in mourning for three weeks, during which he ate no meat or wine. It makes no sense to say that he gave them up for three weeks, if it were his regular habit to pursue a teetotalling and vegetarian diet. It would be like saying I was going to give up liver, Brussels sprouts, and creamed corn for Lent, when everyone knows I wouldn't let such filth pass my lips on any day of the year.

 

[tinytim]

So if Daniel gave them up, then he must have partaken of them in the past.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Daniel said in the first chapter that he would not defile himself with the kings wine.

We find in the 10th chapter that he went on a fast from wine for three weeks.

This clearly shows that the wine Daniel was drinking was different from that which the king drank.

Since there are two classes of wine, alcoholic and non-alcoholic, and Daniel would defile himself with the class the king drank, the only Biblical and logical conclusion one can come to is the kings wine was that fermented wine that was forbidden as written in Deuteronomy as being the poison of dragons and the venom of asps.

Daniel's wine that he drank, was the pure, non-alcoholic fruit of the vine.

 

[Ransom]

Daniel said in the first chapter that he would not defile himself with the kings wine.

We find in the 10th chapter that he went on a fast from wine for three weeks.

This clearly shows that the wine Daniel was drinking was different from that which the king drank.

Or that as an adult and one of the highest-ranking officials in the empire, the king no longer exerted a corrupting influence over him.

In other words, the assumption that the king's wine contained alcohol and Daniel's did not, is unwarranted by the facts.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If all wine was alcoholic, Daniel would have been defiling himself with any wine, not just the king's wine.

The fact is, Daniel would not defile himself with the kings wine and requested water. Later we see him drinking wine. It clearly cannot be the king's wine, else he would be defiling himself.

It is clear, if all wine was alcoholic and it was ok to drink alcohol in moderation, Daniel would have accepted the wine and drank just a little of it. But no, Daniel knew it was forbidden, thus he purposed in his heart not to defile himself by drinking it.

The wine Daniel drank was different from that wine the king drank. It was not fermented.