The Bible confirms in Matthew 1:21b who it is Jesus Gave Himself to Save, as in who He died for and why He died for them.

[Alan Dale Gross]

Every child of Adam has Inability, WITHOUT ANY ACTIVITY BY GOD, and are already Condemned, because of the sin of Adam and their sin in Adam and because they have not believed on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Savior of souls, as their Savior.

Benn1445 said, "I certainly am glad that God actively gave Himself for us."

This is who Jesus said He Actively Gave Himself for:

Jesus said, "I Am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd Giveth His Life for the sheep," in John 10:11

and Jesus said, in John 10:14-16; "I Am the Good Shepherd, and Know My sheep, and Am known of Mine.

15; "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep.

16; "And other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold: them also I Must Bring,
and they shall Hear My Voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

Then, the Bible also confirms in Matthew 1:21b who Jesus Gave Himself to Save, as in who He died for and why He died for them:
"...thou shalt call His Name JESUS: for He Shall Save His people from their sins.



Benn1445 said, "There is now no person who may say that God has never actively sought them."

"...the Son of man is Come to Seek and to Save that which was lost," Luke 19:10.
Those who have been or will have been "sought" by God, Effectually, in so many words, are the Chosen Elect of God who Jesus Actively Seeks to Save, because those are the specific souls that God the Father Gave to Him and God the Father Will then Irresistibly Draw them and they are Eternally Saved in the Day of His Power, by the New Birth from Above, by the Holy Spirit.



This should give you the Table of Contents to T.P. Simmons' SYSYEMATIC THEOLOGY.

Along with these Chapters below of relative subjects surrounding them, please see:
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls


Chapter 14 The Essential Elements of Human Nature
Chapter 15 The Moral Nature of Man
Chapter 16 The Original State and Fall of Man
Chapter 17 The Doctrine of Sin
Chapter 18 Human Responsibility
Chapter 19 The Free Agency of Man
Chapter 20 The Doctrine of Election
Chapter 21 The Doctrine of The Atonement
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls
Chapter 23 The New Birth
Chapter 24 The Doctrine of Conversion
Chapter 25 Repentance and Faith
Chapter 26 The Doctrine of Justification
Chapter 27 The Doctrine of Sanctification
Chapter 28 The Three Tenses of Salvation

 

[Ben1445]

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

You are an Israelite?

 

[Ben1445]

You didn’t actually correct the hyper Calvinist in the other thread. You played word games again and called them lazy.
You have said nothing but God has chosen not to save some people.

Correct me please, if you don’t believe that.

There are too many different kinds of Calvinists and I can’t keep everyone straight.

 

[Ben1445]

I along with any other serious person will grant that there is nothing that man can do to come to God. God must come to man.
He did. Jesus is God. Jesus came to fallen man who could and still can do nothing by himself to save himself.
Jesus has always been the only way, the only truth, and the only life.
That the gospel is to be preached to every man is not up for debate.
So there is no man to whom God has not reached out to, at the very least, in regard that the gospel is to be preached to every man. So I believe in limited imputation.

Psalm 32:1-2
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no guile.

But Christ has atoned for mankind as a whole.
Jesus answered original sin, if you want to call it that.
Jesus atoned for all men in that He brought the gift to many to the same extent that Adam brought sin and death to many.
We are all born after Adam. Made in the sinful image of Adam.
We must be born again. Made after the image of Jesus Christ.
And in this respect I am always asked what choice I had in my physical birth, as if the spiritual birth was like the physical birth.
But nobody tells a baby, believe on your parents and you will be born.
Yet we are told in Scripture to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.
There are some major differences between physical and spiritual birth that can not be overlooked.
And then for the people who want to tell me that saved is different than born again, are you suggesting that people can be saved but not born again, or born again but not saved?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Are you sure that you want to say that the only souls ever Saved under the Preaching of the Gospel were the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Are you sure that you want to say that the only souls Jesus Christ ever Saved were the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

You are an Israelite?

Are you sure that you want to say that the only Israelites were ever Saved?

You could have read where I quoted what...

Jesus said, in John 10:14-16; "I Am the Good Shepherd, and Know My sheep, and Am known of Mine.

15; "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep.

16; "And other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold: them also I Must Bring,
and they shall Hear My Voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

Try to pay attention.

"...the Son of man is Come to Seek and to Save that which was lost," Luke 19:10.

The Hate Crime against Jesus by accusing Him of only Saving those lost sheep of the house of Israel doesn't sound consistent with Plain Bible Teaching or with having been Granted Repentance Toward God in Salvation, to me.

I'm not doubting anything; I'm saying it sure sounds inconsistent.

 

[Ben1445]

Are you sure that you want to say that the only souls ever Saved under the Preaching of the Gospel were the lost sheep of the house of Israel?


Are you sure that you want to say that the only souls Jesus Christ ever Saved were the lost sheep of the house of Israel?


Are you sure that you want to say that the only Israelites were ever Saved?

You could have read where I quoted what...

Try to pay attention.


The Hate Crime against Jesus by accusing Him of only Saving those lost sheep of the house of Israel doesn't sound consistent with Plain Bible Teaching or with having been Granted Repentance Toward God in Salvation, to me.

I'm not doubting anything; I'm saying it sure sounds inconsistent.

I’m just pointing out that the teaching on the subject of sheep must be taken in context.

Sheep are also sacrificed in Scripture. There are many different uses of the word.

I don’t believe that you use all of them accurately.


I’m paying attention. But I don’t agree with you. I think you take Calvinist liberties. You are the hyper Calvinist (who is not lazy).

I’m trying to make a point, but you have tunnel vision.

 

[DaveXR650]

There are too many different kinds of Calvinists and I can’t keep everyone straight.

Now you are starting to get it. And to make matters worse it turns out that when you actually read Arminius himself - he was a lot more Calvinistic than what Owen and Edwards were arguing against. So you might have a hyper-Calvinist against Calvinist, Calvinist against semi-Pelagians who think they are Arminians, hyper-Calvinists vs Arminians who make the Calvinists cringe, and so on.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You didn’t actually correct the hyper Calvinist in the other thread.

Hyper Calvinists do not obey God's Command to Preach the Gospel to every creature.

Hyper Calvinists are Commanded by God to Preach the Gospel, unless they are lost and wouldn't be Called to Preach the Gospel in that case.

Hyper Calvinists say that they claim God is Sovereign, but they choose by the act of their wills to not obey His Sovereignty.

The correction to Hyper Calvinists would be for them to obey God's Command, if they are Saved.

If you can figure that out, yet.

You played word games again and called them lazy.

God calls them wicked.

There is no word game. God Commands that His Gospel be Preached to every creature.

Those who do not obey God are wicked in their hatred of His Gospel Message of Jesus Christ's death, burial, and resurrection to Save the lost souls of men, women, boys, and girls.

"The Slothful Servant is sentenced to be deprived of his talent." Excerpt from Matthew Henry Commentary.

"Those who think it impossible to please God, and in vain to serve him, will do nothing to purpose in religion. They complain that He requires of them more than they are capable of, and that He Punishes them for what they cannot help. Whatever they may pretend, the fact is, they dislike the Character and Work of the Lord."

"When the third servant appears, he’s done nothing with the money. He admits he buried it in the ground because he was afraid to use it (Matthew 25:24-25, Luke 19:20-21).

"The Master Rebukes the third servant for not even putting the money in the bank, where he could have gotten interest on it. Then he gives the one talent to the first servant, for
“to everyone who has, more will be given,
but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away” (Luke 19:26)."
The Parable of the Talents - Bible Verse Story and Meaning

The Parable of the Pounds "makes explicit that citizens of God’s Kingdom are responsible to work toward God’s Goals and Purposes. In this Parable, the king tells his servants directly what he expects them to do, namely, to invest his money. This specific calling or command makes it clear that preaching, healing, and evangelism (the Apostles’ Callings) are not the only things God Calls people to do. Of course, not everyone in God’s Kingdom is Called to be an investor, either. In this Parable, only three of the country’s residents are called to be investors.

"The point is that acknowledging Jesus as King requires working toward His Purposes in whatever field of work you do."

Risk: The Parable of the Ten Minas (Luke 19:11-27)

Explore free resources providing a Biblical perspective on faith and work. Used by workplace Christians, pastors and scholars.

www.theologyofwork.org

God has chosen not to save some people.

That is correct. He Chose to have Mercy on whom He would have Mercy, according to the Good Pleasure of His Own Will.

And the "rest" He left where He Found them, in their God-Hating sin toward Him, without Repentance.

There are too many different kinds of Calvinists and I can’t keep everyone straight.

If you want their to be more good, solid, Saved, consistent, obedient 'Calvinists', be one.

They know how God Saves souls, unless they are Hyper Calvinist heretics.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

So there is no man to whom God has not reached out to, at the very least, in regard that the gospel is to be preached to every man.

We don't know that the Gospel is Preached to everyone, because God said to.

But we know for sure from Romans 1:18; "For the Wrath of God is Revealed from Heaven against all Ungodliness and Unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in Unrighteousness;

19; "Because that which may be Known of God is Manifest in them; for God hath Shewed it unto them.

20; "For the Invisible Things of Him from the Creation of the World are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are Made, even His Eternal Power and Godhead; so that they are without Excuse:

21; "Because that, when they knew God, they Glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was Darkened.

22; "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"

But Christ has atoned for mankind as a whole.

I don't see that in the Bible, or in common sense.

If God is said to have Punished Jesus on the cross for those who ultimately go to Hell, or even those who were already in Hell, He would be Punishing both Jesus on the cross and the soul in Hell as an unjust matter of Double Jeapordy, which would be sinful and, therefore NOT OF GOD.

Any verse you think would lead you there has to have a corrected Interpretation to fit with Who God is.

I quoted again below who it was that Jesus and the Bible say He died for, if you want to listen to what Jesus says about it.

Jesus answered original sin, if you want to call it that.

All of Mankind would be Saved and those who are in Hell and who go to Hell are not Saved.

This is just Patent Error.

Jesus atoned for all men in that He brought the gift to many to the same extent that Adam brought sin and death to many.

I can't make "all men", as you say, and "many" be a part of one activity, in the same sentence, since "many" restricts "all" to mean less that absolutely "all" and yet your argument is trying to say Jesus Atoned for "all". Can't have it.

According to the overall Message of the New Testament in context, for the Lord to be said to have Done something for "all men", etc., is most always making reference to the Teaching that what was being done was not strictly for the benefit of the Jews anymore, exclusively, but what was being done was INCLUSIVE OF THE GENTILES, ALSO.

"All men", meaning INCLUDING THE GENTILES, is all there is to all that.

Adam's sin brought death upon "many", because Jesus was not included.

But nobody tells a baby, believe on your parents and you will be born.
Yet we are told in Scripture to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.
There are some major differences between physical and spiritual birth that can not be overlooked.

Both are a birth, Predetermined by God. "You must be Born Again".

Those who are told to "believe on THE LORD Jesus Christ" have had the circumstances of the lives take place where they are being Commanded to believe on "THE LORD", in other words, the LORD GOD JESUS Who Rose from the dead, Who they have become well aware of, such as the Jailer who may have heard of Lydia, and others being Saved and certainly he was aware of the Preaching of Paul and why Paul he had been arrested, along with the consideration that Paul and Silas had probably not exactly been silent during their arrest and imprisonment, in fact they'd been singing Praises to the Lord, etc., and no doubt PREACHING HOT AND HEAVY ABOUT THE ONE WHO WAS NAILED TO CROSS AS PUNISHMENT FOR SINS.

God Judges sin they know, by implication even if it is not stated each time someone is Commanded to believe.

That and since it is not within a lost soul to seek after God, since there are none that seeketh, we know that that Jailer for example was conscience of his sinful condition as being a Law Breaker before an Angry God of Justice with which he had to do.

For him to ask, "what must I do to be Saved" indicates the Holy Spirit had been Dealing with him over his sin AND HIS NEED OF A SAVIOR. Then, as Paul went with him to where he lived, the Bible says he continued to expound the Word of God to him and the others.

So, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be Saved" is not Commanded in a vacuum, with there being the Work of the Holy Spirit already Dealing with those souls, using the Law to Bring them to 'believe' they have a need for a Savior.

And then for the people who want to tell me that saved is different than born again, are you suggesting that people can be saved but not born again, or born again but not saved?

Not me. I wonder if there actually is false religion that could be where people are told they are 'Saved', because they give their assent to a historical 'Easter Story', or are told to sign a 'Decision Card' or other deception, when everyone involved knows that the Real Experience of being Born Again is Life Changing in every way and the Saved person is Testifying THEY'VE BEEN SAVED!

This is who Jesus said He Actively Gave Himself for:

Jesus said, "I Am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd Giveth His Life for the sheep," in John 10:11

Jesus said He Gave His Life for the sheep, if what Jesus said means anything to you.

Here, also:

and Jesus said, in John 10:14-16; "I Am the Good Shepherd, and Know My sheep, and Am known of Mine.

15; "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep.

16; "And other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold: them also I Must Bring,
and they shall Hear My Voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

Then, the Bible also confirms in Matthew 1:21b who Jesus Gave Himself to Save, as in who He died for and why He died for them:
"...thou shalt call His Name JESUS: for He Shall Save His people from their sins.

Jesus is said to be Going to "Save His people", which is stating that He was Going to "SAVE HIS PEOPLE", specifically,
and that He was Going to Save His people "FROM THEIR SINS", specifically.

That's what it says.

 

[Ben1445]

Now you are starting to get it. And to make matters worse it turns out that when you actually read Arminius himself - he was a lot more Calvinistic than what Owen and Edwards were arguing against. So you might have a hyper-Calvinist against Calvinist, Calvinist against semi-Pelagians who think they are Arminians, hyper-Calvinists vs Arminians who make the Calvinists cringe, and so on.

I’ve always understood that.
But when I talk to Calvinists, you are one of the few who says, “I don’t believe that.”

What I usually get is “you don’t understand.” So what I assume is that they do believe what they continue to defend.

 

[Ben1445]

I can't make "all men", as you say, and "many" be a part of one activity, in the same sentence, since "many" restricts "all" to mean less that absolutely "all" and yet your argument is trying to say Jesus Atoned for "all". Can't have it.

Try reading Romans 5 again and ask yourself how Paul does it.

 

[Ben1445]

We don't know that the Gospel is Preached to everyone, because God said to.

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

That is intent.
And here is obedience…

Colossians 1:6
Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

I don't see that in the Bible, or in common sense.

Here it is in the Bible. Use common sense.
Romans 5:18-19
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If God is said to have Punished Jesus on the cross for those who ultimately go to Hell, or even those who were already in Hell, He would be Punishing both Jesus on the cross and the soul in Hell as an unjust matter of Double Jeapordy, which would be sinful and, therefore NOT OF GOD.

Life isn’t fair. Do you need tissues?

A person’s rejection of salvation and the work of Christ is the greater sin. It is nothing more than personal choice to do the same thing Adam did.

Any verse you think would lead you there has to have a corrected Interpretation to fit with Who God is.

I quoted again below who it was that Jesus and the Bible say He died for, if you want to listen to what Jesus says about it.


All of Mankind would be Saved and those who are in Hell and who go to Hell are not Saved.

This is just Patent Error.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Last time I knew, whosoever in the world means anyone.
Enter the word games. The hyper Calvinist position, yours is essentially “That only means the ones who God believes on behalf of.”
Yes, you are one of the hyper Calvinists who believe that God essentially believes for some people and leaves the rest where He found them. That is hyper Calvinism. You are just not lazy about it.

According to the overall Message of the New Testament in context, for the Lord to be said to have Done something for "all men", etc., is most always making reference to the Teaching that what was being done was not strictly for the benefit of the Jews anymore, exclusively, but what was being done was INCLUSIVE OF THE GENTILES, ALSO.

Whosoever.

"All men", meaning INCLUDING THE GENTILES, is all there is to all that.

That is all you are willing to hear. But God is not a respecter of persons. God does not pick favorites or select some people over others. That would be hyper Calvinism.

Adam's sin brought death upon "many", because Jesus was not included.


Both are a birth, Predetermined by God. "You must be Born Again".

Yes, you are the hyper Calvinist.

Those who are told to "believe on THE LORD Jesus Christ" have had the circumstances of the lives take place where they are being Commanded to believe on "THE LORD", in other words, the LORD GOD JESUS Who Rose from the dead, Who they have become well aware of, such as the Jailer who may have heard of Lydia, and others being Saved and certainly he was aware of the Preaching of Paul and why Paul he had been arrested, along with the consideration that Paul and Silas had probably not exactly been silent during their arrest and imprisonment, in fact they'd been singing Praises to the Lord, etc., and no doubt PREACHING HOT AND HEAVY ABOUT THE ONE WHO WAS NAILED TO CROSS AS PUNISHMENT FOR SINS.

God Judges sin they know, by implication even if it is not stated each time someone is Commanded to believe.

That and since it is not within a lost soul to seek after God, since there are none that seeketh, we know that that Jailer for example was conscience of his sinful condition as being a Law Breaker before an Angry God of Justice with which he had to do.

The argument of none seeking ignores that God came in flesh to seek mankind. Entirely.
But… this is the condemnation, that men love darkness rather than light.

But as many as received Him…, not as many as were forced to be regenerated.

For him to ask, "what must I do to be Saved" indicates the Holy Spirit had been Dealing with him over his sin AND HIS NEED OF A SAVIOR. Then, as Paul went with him to where he lived, the Bible says he continued to expound the Word of God to him and the others.

And you think that God doesn’t strive with all men. Your version of your God is lazy by your definition.

You are not correct, sir.

So, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be Saved" is not Commanded in a vacuum, with there being the Work of the Holy Spirit already Dealing with those souls, using the Law to Bring them to 'believe' they have a need for a Savior.

You mean that believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation is not always true. Your Bible is not always the truth for all people?

God has a different standard for different people? An unjust weight? You think God keeps an unjust standard that He calls an abomination??
I trow not!!

Not me. I wonder if there actually is false religion that could be where people are told they are 'Saved', because they give their assent to a historical 'Easter Story', or are told to sign a 'Decision Card' or other deception, when everyone involved knows that the Real Experience of being Born Again is Life Changing in every way and the Saved person is Testifying THEY'VE BEEN SAVED!

I’m no easy believism preacher either. You can throw mud but it doesn’t stick.

Jesus said He Gave His Life for the sheep, if what Jesus said means anything to you.

Would you like to be His sheep?
It’s quite easy. You only have to become an entirely different creature. Sounds hard? Jesus Christ does all the work. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

Here, also:



Jesus is said to be Going to "Save His people", which is stating that He was Going to "SAVE HIS PEOPLE", specifically,
and that He was Going to Save His people "FROM THEIR SINS", specifically.

That's what it says.

Imputation. It is an important doctrine.

 

[DaveXR650]

I’ve always understood that.
But when I talk to Calvinists, you are one of the few who says, “I don’t believe that.”

What I usually get is “you don’t understand.” So what I assume is that they do believe what they continue to defend.

If you remember the movie "Outlaw Josey Wales" I'm like the ferry boat operator who while taking Wales across was singing "Dixie" and then on the way back to pick up the Red Legs he started singing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" when he got half way across the river.

I just got a book by Ian Murray which is a compilation of the writings and sermons of Charles Spurgeon and his discussions and battles with the hyper-Calvinists (or the more Calvinistic than him) of his day. It's worth getting, just to have everything together in one place. Some of the Calvinists of his day thought he was just young and confused. But I would be more in his range of theology or maybe J.C. Ryle, who in his book "Old Paths" said the one thing Calvinists claim you should never say to someone you were witnessing to - "that Christ died for you", yet he claimed to hold to the doctrines of grace. I am encouraged, not discouraged by the moderation I see in some of the greats from the past.

 

[Psalty]

Benn1445 said, "I certainly am glad that God actively gave Himself for us."

This is who Jesus said He Actively Gave Himself for:

Jesus said, "I Am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd Giveth His Life for the sheep," in John 10:11

and Jesus said, in John 10:14-16; "I Am the Good Shepherd, and Know My sheep, and Am known of Mine.

15; "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep.

16; "And other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold: them also I Must Bring,
and they shall Hear My Voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

Then, the Bible also confirms in Matthew 1:21b who Jesus Gave Himself to Save, as in who He died for and why He died for them:
"...thou shalt call His Name JESUS: for He Shall Save His people from their sins.



Benn1445 said, "There is now no person who may say that God has never actively sought them."

"...the Son of man is Come to Seek and to Save that which was lost," Luke 19:10.
Those who have been or will have been "sought" by God, Effectually, in so many words, are the Chosen Elect of God who Jesus Actively Seeks to Save, because those are the specific souls that God the Father Gave to Him and God the Father Will then Irresistibly Draw them and they are Eternally Saved in the Day of His Power, by the New Birth from Above, by the Holy Spirit.



This should give you the Table of Contents to T.P. Simmons' SYSYEMATIC THEOLOGY.

Along with these Chapters below of relative subjects surrounding them, please see:
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls


Chapter 14 The Essential Elements of Human Nature
Chapter 15 The Moral Nature of Man
Chapter 16 The Original State and Fall of Man
Chapter 17 The Doctrine of Sin
Chapter 18 Human Responsibility
Chapter 19 The Free Agency of Man
Chapter 20 The Doctrine of Election
Chapter 21 The Doctrine of The Atonement
Chapter 22 The Outward and Inward Calls
Chapter 23 The New Birth
Chapter 24 The Doctrine of Conversion
Chapter 25 Repentance and Faith
Chapter 26 The Doctrine of Justification
Chapter 27 The Doctrine of Sanctification
Chapter 28 The Three Tenses of Salvation

Did He shed His blood to purchase these too?:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
— 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I’m trying to make a point, but you have tunnel vision.

The point you are making is concerning your lack of education.

I don’t believe that you use all of them accurately.

Nobody asked what you don't believe, or do.

And you can't just suggest something might not be accurate, as a casting aspersion, or as if anybody could possibly care to start with. That's too cheap to talk about, right after you were bragging on your ignorance.

I'm beginning to wonder there, Ben1445.

I can't make "all men", as you say, and "many" be a part of one activity, in the same sentence, since "many" restricts "all" to mean less that absolutely "all" and yet your argument is trying to say Jesus Atoned for "all". Can't have it.

According to the overall Message of the New Testament in context, for the Lord to be said to have Done something for "all men", etc., is most always making reference to the Teaching that what was being done was not strictly for the benefit of the Jews anymore, exclusively, but what was being done was INCLUSIVE OF THE GENTILES, ALSO.

"All men", meaning INCLUDING THE GENTILES, is all there is to all that.

Adam's sin brought death upon "many", because Jesus was not included.

What I usually get is “you don’t understand.” So what I assume is that they do believe what they continue to defend.

The Bible fits and defends The Doctrines of Grace like a hand in a glove.

They were made for each other.

Try reading Romans 5 again and ask yourself how Paul does it.

You need to see "Condemnation through Adam's offence to all his natural seed"
and "Justification of Life through Christ's Righteousness to all His Spiritual seed."

Romans 5:15,
15 "But not as the offence, so also is the Free Gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more
the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace, which is by One Man, Jesus Christ, hath Abounded unto many."

"It was one offence of Adam's, which brought Condemnation and Death upon all his Posterity;
but the Righteousness of Christ is not only a Justification of His seed from that one offence, but from all other offences,

Romans 5:16,
16 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the Gift:
for the Judgment was by one to Condemnation,
but the Free Gift is of many offences unto Justification."

"the one is unto Death, the other unto Life; and Greater is the Efficacy in the One to Quicken, than in the other to kill,

Romans 5:17,
17 "For if by one man's offence Death Reigned by one;
much more they which receive Abundance of Grace
and of the Gift of Righteousness shall Reign in Life by One, Jesus Christ.)

"where a repetition is made of what is said in

Romans 5:15,
15 "But not as the offence, so also is the Free Gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more
the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace, which is by One Man, Jesus Christ, hath Abounded unto many."

"with an explanation, and the similitude between the two heads is clearly expressed,

Romans 5:18, "Therefore as by the offence of one Judgment came upon all men to Condemnation;
even so by the Righteousness of One the Free Gift came upon all men unto Justification of Life."

"where Condemnation on account of the sin of Adam, and Justification through the Righteousness of Christ,
are opposed to each other; and both as extending to the whole of their several respective offspring,

"Condemnation through Adam's offence to all his natural seed,
and Justification of Life through Christ's Righteousness to all His Spiritual seed;
which is still more fitly and clearly expressed in

Romans 5:19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the Obedience of One shall many be Made Righteous.

"where the way and manner in which the one become sinners, and the other Righteous, is plainly directed to; that it is, by the Imputation of Adam's disobedience to the one, and by the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness to the other."

Adapted from: Romans 5 KJV

 

[Psalty]

The Bible fits and defends The Doctrines of Grace like a hand in a glove.

They were made for each other.

If you are going to use human terminology it should be more accurate.

“Doctrines of Limited Grace”

 

[Ben1445]

Nobody asked what you don't believe, or do.

Well! Excuse me!

My hand is in the air teacher. May I speak?

I thought this was a public forum. I didn’t realize that I needed permission from your eminence to speak.

But you might apply your own standards to yourself since they are your own standards. Only speak when you are spoken to and you don’t have to worry about having a double standard.

 

[Ben1445]

The point you are making is concerning your lack of education.
Nobody asked what you don't believe, or do.

And you can't just suggest something might not be accurate, as a casting aspersion, or as if anybody could possibly care to start with. That's too cheap to talk about, right after you were bragging on your ignorance.

I'm beginning to wonder there, Ben1445.

And speaking of cheap shots… you are guilty of exactly what you claim to be upset about.

I have not bragged on my ignorance. I said that you don’t use Scripture accurately in your defense of the limited grace of God. (Thanks for that one @Psalty)
You defame God by making Him a respecter of persons, selecting some to be gloriously punished for doing what they could not have otherwise done. You have God glorying in the death of the wicked, something that is strictly against the character of God.

Now if you care to dispense with your junior high level retorts, we can discuss the topic at hand.
If you are just interested in roasting users, start a new thread for it.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I’m just pointing out that the teaching on the subject of sheep must be taken in context.

Here this is again,

Jesus said, in John 10:14-16; "I Am the Good Shepherd, and Know My sheep, and Am known of Mine.

15; "As the Father Knoweth Me, even so Know I the Father: and I Lay Down My Life for the sheep.

then, "other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold", in context.

16; "And other sheep I have, which are not of this Fold: them also I Must Bring,
and they shall Hear My Voice; and there shall be One Fold, and One Shepherd."

That the gospel is to be preached to every man is not up for debate.

As long as we remember that just because "the gospel is to be preached to every man" doesn't mean that we can be sure that it has been, or ever will be, as far as trying to include that we could know every human Being that ever lived has been Preached the Gospel, in the proper sense. We don't. And it may be God's Intension that some never have the Gospel Preached specifiacally to include every person ever born. We don't know.

So there is no man to whom God has not reached out to, at the very least, in regard that the gospel is to be preached to every man.

The Gospel is Sent by God's Messagers and to all who hear it naturally with their ears, they are those Called in an Outward physical sense only and that General Call as it is called is always inaffectual in Obtaining Eternal Life from it.

It is only when the HOLY SPIRIT Bares Witness to that Outward Preaching of the Gospel on the Inside of that lost person's soul and Makes that Specific person's Calling Effectual, in the Day of God's Power, in their soul and they are Granted Repentance and Faith in the New Birth at that time.

But Christ has atoned for mankind as a whole.
Jesus answered original sin, if you want to call it that.

If He had done so, in either case, all individuals within Mankind as a whole would be Saved and we know that since the time of Cain, when he went to Hell over 6,000 years ago, not all individual souls are eventually Saved, but some go to Hell.

So, it just simply can not be True that Jesus 'Atoned for Mankind as a whole' or "answered original sin".

Are you saying that you want God to Restore everyone's soul into the same State Adam's was in, in innocents, and by Jesus' "answer" He Put us all back into the Garden of Eden and Gave us the Choice to decide whether we want to pick going to Heaven or Hell, by picking the Tree of Life to go to Heaven or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to go to Hell?

That may be the lost religious man-made ideas about How God Saves souls, that every normal everyday lost soul walking around thinks about, who "HOPES GOD WILL SAVE THEM A HOME IN HEAVEN FOR BEING GOOD AND NICE", but that's not what God Revealed about How He Saves souls.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

“Doctrines of Limited Grace”

The way God Put that in the Teachings of His Eternally Giving Grace to His Chosen Elect is "I Will have Mercy on whom I Will have Mercy" and it is implied in His Bible Doctrines of Grace that, therefore, not all men Receive His Grace, as in Romans 1:24; "Wherefore God also Gave them Up..." Romans 1.

If you are going to use human terminology it should be more accurate.

"Doctrines" means "Teachings" of God's Eternal Grace which pretty much covers the subject matter without your indictment in anger against God where you think you need to emphasize what you have determined is unfair by your standards.

That is inconsistent with being in a State of Repentance Toward God isn't it?

And you want to set your Limits up to where you have higher standards than God and would have made it possible for any individual to be Saved if they wanted to be and just Punished Jesus and those who do not agree to go to Heaven, with Duplicate and Double Punishments for the same offences.