The Bible & debt

[evangelist6589]

I heard a Charles Stanley sermon on this topic. I agree with it. Unfortunately in my situation my per month income does not allow me to get out of my massive debts. I can reduce spending which is what I am doing, but it still is not gonna get me out of debt. I can make minimum payments on most of my debts however. This question was not answered by Dr. Stanley in his sermon. I pay the Lord my tithe and stay as obedient to paying my debts as I can.

I know this is a CONTROVERSIAL issue and I am not starting a flame war here (at least not my intention). I dont know if by reading the Bible God promises us to deliver us from all our problems in life. Perhaps this is an area where Dr. Stanley and John MacArthur disagree. MacArthur does not preach that God promises to deliver us from all our problems in life.

 

[Deacon]

The person (or institution) that holds your debt is your master.

I work to cover my mortgage.

Thank God that when the toll is finally collected he covered my debt and owns me.

Rob

 

[freeatlast]

I heard a Charles Stanley sermon on this topic. I agree with it. Unfortunately in my situation my per month income does not allow me to get out of my massive debts. I can reduce spending which is what I am doing, but it still is not gonna get me out of debt. I can make minimum payments on most of my debts however. This question was not answered by Dr. Stanley in his sermon. I pay the Lord my tithe and stay as obedient to paying my debts as I can.

I know this is a CONTROVERSIAL issue and I am not starting a flame war here (at least not my intention). I dont know if by reading the Bible God promises us to deliver us from all our problems in life. Perhaps this is an area where Dr. Stanley and John MacArthur disagree. MacArthur does not preach that God promises to deliver us from all our problems in life.

Let me say at the beginning that most debt is due to presumption. Some does happen beyond our control but most is due to presumption and never is it done of faith as the bible never tells us to get in debt. That being said the bible does not forbid debt, but it does discourage it. The borrower is a slave to the lender. It does say to owe no man anything except love although to be honest it is taking out of context that passage to suggest no debt.

Personally I seek a no debt lifestyle and find it very rewarding and God blessed life. When I teach on the subject I try to get people to understand the difference between wants and needs as we tend to lie to ourselves to have things we do not need but want. This is something that we as Americans from the most wealthy to the most poor have lost site of.

Our needs is what is required to keep us alive for one day and nothing more as tomorrow does not belong to us. Our wants is everything else. Once we come to grips with this it becomes much easier to deny ourselves things that would put us in debt. For example we need a place to live, but most likely we could live in a much cheaper place. We may need a vehicle to get to work, but we do not need one with all the bells and whistles.
We need clothing but not all the changes we have. We need to eat but not at restaurants, not soft drinks, chips and all the other things we buy. I have learned that I can eat on 1.00 to 1.50 a day and still be over weight if not careful.

So I suggest that you get out of debt by learning how to deny yourself your wants and then learn how to live within your means and find the peace that God is offering you as you learn how to save money for your future by denying yourself today.
Don't sacrifice the future for the present.

So I would guess that your income does allow you to get out of debt if you apply those principles. My guess is that problem is not your income but if you are willing to live within your means. As Americans we have lost site of the Christian value of self sacrifice. We need to re-learn the principle.

 

[righteousdude2]

Well, I Have Both...

...That's right, I have a Bible and debt! :laugh:

Hope you get some sound feedback on this. I look forward to following this post.

If you were WOF, you would not have to worry about debt. You'd just simply have to name what you need and go claim it! No one in the WOF realm of things is struggling financially, and in debt.

If they are struggling, they lack the necessary faith to be a true WOF follower, and would be ostracized and cast aside. Ever notice that WOF preachers drive the best cars; wear gold and diamonds all over their body; and most likely own a private jet, and live in a mansion here on earth?

Welcome to the world of selling faith! WOF is a cancer among the true believers of this world. It is a sham, ponzi like pyramid scheme of a faith. And it will continue to pull in the crowds, because everyone, including a lot of believers, want the easy answers to life, and WOF sure makes it seem easy to manipulate God into giving them everything they ask for. If it were just that simple?

Those who follow Jesus know that the path is not easy. In fact, the Scripture says the path is "difficult" as well as narrow. I think it is difficult and narrow to not allow big Cadillacs and Humvees from making their way down the path. :laugh:

Be strong and keep the faith. Your day of living on golden streets is but one last breath away! :thumbs:

Pastor Paul

 

[evangelist6589]

The bible does not forbid debt, but it does discourage it. The borrower is a slave to the lender. It does say to owe no man anything except love although to be honest it is taking out of context that passage to suggest no debt.

Personally I seek a no debt lifestyle and find it very rewarding and God blessed life. When I teach on the subject I try to get people to understand the difference between wants and needs as we tend to lie to ourselves to have things we do not need but want. This is something that we as Americans from the most wealthy to the most poor have lost site of.

Our needs is what is required to keep us alive and nothing more. Our wants is everything else. Once we come to grips with this it becomes much easier to deny ourselves things that would put us in debt. For example we need a place to live, but most likely we could live in a much cheaper place. We may need a vehicle to get to work, but we do not need one with all the bells and whistles.
We need clothing but not all the changes we have. We need to eat but not at restaurants, not soft drinks, chips and all the other things we buy. I have learned that I can eat on 1.00 to 1.50 a day and still be over weight if not careful.

So I suggest that you get out of debt by learning how to deny yourself your wants and then learn how to live within your means and find the peace that God is offering you as you learn how to save money for your future by denying yourself today.
Don't sacrifice the future for the present.

So I would guess that you income does allow you to get out of debt if you apply those principles. My guess is that problem is not your income but if you are willing to live within your means. As Americans we have lost site of the Christian value of sacrifice. We need to re-learn the principle.

Not exactly… I spend as little as I can. My debts are very very large due to a variety of factors. People often want to try and a make a simple solution for my problem, but there is none but to continue to search for a higher income.

I wish Stanley will address those in my boat in his next podcast.


John

 

[evangelist6589]

...That's right, I have a Bible and debt! :laugh:

Hope you get some sound feedback on this. I look forward to following this post.

If you were WOF, you would not have to worry about debt. You'd just simply have to name what you need and go claim it! No one in the WOF realm of things is struggling financially, and in debt.

If they are struggling, they lack the necessary faith to be a true WOF follower, and would be ostracized and cast aside. Ever notice that WOF preachers drive the best cars; wear gold and diamonds all over their body; and most likely own a private jet, and live in a mansion here on earth?

Welcome to the world of selling faith! WOF is a cancer among the true believers of this world. It is a sham, ponzi like pyramid scheme of a faith. And it will continue to pull in the crowds, because everyone, including a lot of believers, want the easy answers to life, and WOF sure makes it seem easy to manipulate God into giving them everything they ask for. If it were just that simple?

Those who follow Jesus know that the path is not easy. In fact, the Scripture says the path is "difficult" as well as narrow. I think it is difficult and narrow to not allow big Cadillacs and Humvees from making their way down the path. :laugh:

Be strong and keep the faith. Your day of living on golden streets is but one last breath away! :thumbs:

Pastor Paul

I dont know if I would call Stanley a WOF preacher. He is not even in the same league. But regardless what you say is true in that its not easy to live the Christian life.

 

[freeatlast]

Not exactly… I spend as little as I can. My debts are very very large due to a variety of factors. People often want to try and a make a simple solution for my problem, but there is none but to continue to search for a higher income.

I wish Stanley will address those in my boat in his next podcast.


John

If you already have an answer why are you seeking another?

 

[evangelist6589]

If you already have an answer why are you seeking another?

Its probably more of a discussion on the topic. If I listened to Stanley correctly he was saying that Gd will get you out of debt, but listening to MacArthur he says that God is not guaranteed to deliver us from all our trials. Reading the Bible I find support for both views. Whats yours?

There are many in debt and many that overspend. But not everyone. I heard of a disabled person trying to get out of debt and sadly facing the glim reality that he could not.

 

[annsni]

I would highly recommend that you get into listening to Dave Ramsey or someone similar. They will help you to think through your finances and get into better financial shape. Sometimes, we need to get a second job or change our lifestyle to be able to pay our debt. Sometimes we need to realize just how we are living and how that affects our spending and how we need to change. I know families who have been in severe debt but paid it all off because they changed their lifestyle drastically - like cutting out the TV, cable, internet, selling off anything and everything, downscaling their home, getting rid of the second car, etc.

Right now we are financially making it but we just got word that offerings have been down so much that we are not getting paid this next week. But it's OK because we have the bills paid up and we can live for a short while on what we have stockpiled and the money we have in the bank. We're not where we should be with a nice emergency fund but we're not just paycheck to paycheck yet. But if need be, we have a lot of assets we can sell (many on here know we have a large sailboat and if it makes it through the storm, it's worth quite a bit and we can live off of that for a while) and we are more than willing to downscale to even a small apartment if we have to. Sometimes you just do what you gotta do. I think for me, the biggest thing was getting to the point of understanding that none of this is mine - and so I'm willing to part with it all to the point of having to suffer a bit in comfort for the sake of staying without debt.

 

[freeatlast]

Its probably more of a discussion on the topic. If I listened to Stanley correctly he was saying that Gd will get you out of debt, but listening to MacArthur he says that God is not guaranteed to deliver us from all our trials. Reading the Bible I find support for both views. Whats yours?

There are many in debt and many that overspend. But not everyone. I heard of a disabled person trying to get out of debt and sadly facing the glim reality that he could not.

You still did not answer my question. If you have an answer for your problem why are you seeking another answer? You asked what my view was but I already I gave it.

 

[annsni]

Its probably more of a discussion on the topic. If I listened to Stanley correctly he was saying that Gd will get you out of debt, but listening to MacArthur he says that God is not guaranteed to deliver us from all our trials. Reading the Bible I find support for both views. Whats yours?

There are many in debt and many that overspend. But not everyone. I heard of a disabled person trying to get out of debt and sadly facing the glim reality that he could not.

Debt is living beyond what we make. I doubt Dr. Stanley said that God will get us out of debt because debt is OUR fault - not God's. God can give us wisdom to get out of debt and even bless us with a better job at times (when we look for it and have the skill) but honestly, it's OUR job to get out of debt - not God's.

 

[Thousand Hills]

I would highly recommend that you get into listening to Dave Ramsey or someone similar.

:thumbs: I agree with Ann, when it comes to money matters I'd listen to Dave Ramsey's advice. Stanley and MacArthur are great but Ramsey is the best when it comes to finances with a Christian perspective IMO.

I've personally been worrying alot about finances lately. We are house poor, my work has slowed down, we've had unexpected expenses, and my wife is only working part time. In the midst of this we are hoping to have a little Thousand Hills sometime in the next year. I've had to repent several times over the past few months about my unbelief that the Lord will provide. He's never not provided, but my problem is that I'm worrying about what "might" happen, which is really stupid of me. A quote that I recently read that convicted me is: "Worry over poverty is as fatal to spiritual fruitfulness as is gloating over wealth. —A.W. Pink"

 

[evangelist6589]

Debt is living beyond what we make. I doubt Dr. Stanley said that God will get us out of debt because debt is OUR fault - not God's. God can give us wisdom to get out of debt and even bless us with a better job at times (when we look for it and have the skill) but honestly, it's OUR job to get out of debt - not God's.

These days I do not live beyond what I make. I have not been looking for a better paying job as actively as I should be.

 

[evangelist6589]

:thumbs: I agree with Ann, when it comes to money matters I'd listen to Dave Ramsey's advice. Stanley and MacArthur are great but Ramsey is the best when it comes to finances with a Christian perspective IMO.

I've personally been worrying alot about finances lately. We are house poor, my work has slowed down, we've had unexpected expenses, and my wife is only working part time. In the midst of this we are hoping to have a little Thousand Hills sometime in the next year. I've had to repent several times over the past few months about my unbelief that the Lord will provide. He's never not provided, but my problem is that I'm worrying about what "might" happen, which is really stupid of me. A quote that I recently read that convicted me is: "Worry over poverty is as fatal to spiritual fruitfulness as is gloating over wealth. —A.W. Pink"

I hope all works out well for you

I have heard callers on Crown call up and he clearly tells them they need t get a better paying career to pay down their debts. But with others Crown has said they have lifestyle problems so I guess it depends on the caller.

 

[J.D.]

We've been hit hard by the real estate bust and the stock market. In the last year we've gone from a large net value to barely even, witha large negative cash flow. If we don't sell our New Jersey house by next month, it'll go into foreclosure and because the loss of a large investment in the house will be gone, we may have to declare bankruptcy.

It's tough times but not as bad as the 1930's. In five years it could all be distant memories so hang in there.

 

[righteousdude2]

I Did NOT Mean to Include Stanley in the WOF Catagorey

I dont know if I would call Stanley a WOF preacher. He is not even in the same league. But regardless what you say is true in that its not easy to live the Christian life.

If in any way, what I said drew anyone to the conclusion that I placed Stanley in the WOF group, I apologize! When I was addressing the WOF groups, I did not mean to include anything Stanley ever said on debt as being WOF mumbo-jumbo.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

 

[HAMel]

annsni, debt is not always our fault.

 

[annsni]

annsni, debt is not always our fault.

Well, it's almost always our choice. No, medical bills are not our fault. That I know because we have $100,000+ in bills from my daughter which will be mostly covered by insurance except a few thousand. But I'd say the vast majority of people in debt are there because of poor choices. If my husband lost his job or we knew there was no income coming in, we'd change our lifestyle drastically right away to cut down expenses. If we had to, we'd move in with family before we'd rack up tens or even hundreds of thousands of debt. But many people just don't know how to do that.

 

[freeatlast]

Not exactly… I spend as little as I can. My debts are very very large due to a variety of factors. People often want to try and a make a simple solution for my problem, but there is none but to continue to search for a higher income.

I wish Stanley will address those in my boat in his next podcast.


John

First I hope you actually read what I said in my original response. That being said I can almost positively assure you that you are not living in your means "you spending as little as you can" because you are using the internet which is not free and it is not necessary unless it is used in business. So there is one place that you have a want and it is really not a need. My guess is you have many more like this for example cell phone is another as that is a want for most not a need using the definition of want and need I gave in my first response.
For several years in my duties in management I would work in the area to cut a companies expenses and in every company I did it I was able to cut them between 10 and 25 percent and still maintain a growing and working environment without cutting pay or employees.
I can almost assure you I could cut your expenses but at least 25% if you really wanted to get serious about paying off your debt and staying debt free even at your current level of income.
The problem is that very few people or companies who cry about expenses and debt really want to be free from either. What they want is more money and then they simply go deeper in debt with bigger toys. Living debt free is a sacrifice unless the person is so rich they have everything they can think of and cannot think of where else to spend their money. While there are some like that they are few. So my guess is you can get out of debt on your current income, but most likely you really don’t want to do what it takes.

 

[Arbo]

If in any way, what I said drew anyone to the conclusion that I placed Stanley in the WOF group, I apologize! When I was addressing the WOF groups, I did not mean to include anything Stanley ever said on debt as being WOF mumbo-jumbo.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

What is 'WOF'?