The Bible's Arminian Sequence for salvation

Again Webdog you are using "facts" i.e. choosing Christ... that is the POINT of the matter!

The forknowing is NOT on FACTS, it is on WHOM... it's personal. EVERY single verse that uses to KNOW as a verb is relational NOT on FACTS.....

Don't misapply loving for what they DO verses WHO they ARE.

Bob can't get it through his head why God weeps.... It's not because of THEM Bob, but what they are DOING.

 

"One must be born again not make a decision."

God says "Choose this day whom you will serve". Sounds like a decision to me. Oh...and you are born again by making a decision. Faith requires a decision and you aren't born again apart from faith.

I don't want to hear any of this "you can't choose to be born" stuff either. You can't equate natural law with spiritual law. Just because we don't choose to be born physically does not mean we don't choose to be born again spiritually. Thank you.

 

Herllo KJ.
"One must be born again not make a decision."

He does.

It's not a decision but it is a command of God that is all. All men obey that command every second they live.

Not so, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." To see it you must be born again. The Spirit gives birth to spirit.

It is by grace we are saved not faith.

You can't choose to be born you know?

That's why God gave us types then is it? Because we can't equate natural law with spiritual law.

Quite right to. Have it your own way.

john.

 

Johnp...God's commands infer ability to obey them. God would not give commands that people cannot obey. Man would not be a sinner if He disobeyed when he could NOT help it. He is a sinner because he disobeys when he doesn't have to. I believe that is why God says His commands are not difficult.

I stand by all I said. Anyways...God bless.

 

Heb 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This is the same "impossible" as it is for God to lie, or the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin.

God rewards those who diligently seek him. Believing is a prerequisite in coming to God. Some try to equate the two, but John 12:42 says those believers would not confess because they loved the praises of men more than the praises of God. Those believers had not "come to God".

Heb 11 is filled with examples of pleasing faith. God gives instructions, and man obeys.

The origin of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). Therefore, without hearing God's word, faith cannot exist and it is IMPOSSIBLE to be pleasing to God.

Heb 5:9 - And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

We are called by the gospel according to II Thess 2:14. That's why Jesus gave the commission to preach the Gospel to every person (Matt 28:18-20). It is the gospel that is God's power to save (Rom 1:16). God will take vengeance on those who do not obey the gospel (II Thes 1:8, I Pet 4:17).

II Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

God is no respecter of persons but wants all men to be saved. If God chose who would be saved and lost, that would make him a respecter of persons. No, man will be judged on his actions.

Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

I Pet 4:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: 18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The plan of sending Jesus was foreordained. Man has always had the right to accept it or reject it.

 

If we are saved by God's grace alone, then all men everywhere would be saved.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Yet, most men are lost (Matt 7:13-14). Therefore, we are not saved by grace alone. The bible nowhere teaches that we are saved by anything alone.

What does God's grace do for us? Provided instructions - Titus 2:12 - instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

What instructions? God's word thoroughly furnishes us and INSTRUCTS us in righteousness (II Tim 3:16-17 - See also II Pet 1:3). Is this the limit of God's grace? No, but it is certainly included.

What if we reject those instructions? (I John 2:3-5).

 

Hello mman nice to meet you.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved...

Eph 2:9 9 not by works...

john.

 

Johnp...BY grace THROUGH faith.

 

Nice to meet you too.

Do you think that since the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11), then all men are saved?

Did God owe you instructions because you earned them? No, it was by grace.

Yes, by grace we are saved. How? Through faith. What is faith? Read Heb 11.

Jesus also said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Does this contradict Eph 2:8-9. Of course not. They agree perfectly. Neither verse contridicts nor negates the other.

Did God send His Son, because we earned it? No, it was through his grace.

 

"the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men" is Jesus Himself. He has come to earth for all men, loves all men, and desires all men to be saved. Many men reject this, and the reason is that irresistable grace does not exist. Biblically or logically.

 

Hello mman.

No, there are not many universalists around. Your understanding of 'all men' is incorrect if you don't mind me saying?
I am a Calvinist. If I were Arminian I would not use this scripture because it only says to an Arminian that salvation has appeared to all men.
To me it says that it is the grace of God that brings salvation like I said. Not faith. Does that make sense? Now if the grace of God has been heard by everyman that ever lived I would like to see some evidence that everyman that ever lived has heard of their way of salvation. It would mean that everyman born today knows about Jesus or will before they die. Is this what you believe?

Oh no.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
It's through faith not instruction and toil.
Submitting to God is a good work which God prepared in advance for me to do. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10.

Yea man! Now read their stories!
JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Believe on the One sent is the only requirement for us and believing is faith and faith is given to us by grace because it is by grave that one is saved.

If your emphasis is on baptism I would ask about the thief?

No? You earn salvation with believing. Faith is a work. JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

It is not by works is it? Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
He who says his belief originates within himself is what according to Paul? That is all Pelagians and semi-Pelagians.

Saved by grace I am.

Yes He is full of grace so why do you baulk? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Gal 3:3.

What you think?

john.

 

"faith is given to us by grace"...And that grace is given to everyone. Man is responsible to believe. There is no such thing as irrsesistable grace.

 

Hello KJ.

That is everyman that ever lived and is still to live? What about the fetus millions are they told or just saved?

john.

 

I don't know why you said my understanding of "All men", in reference to Titus 2:11, was wrong. My only point was that we are not saved by grace alone. If we were, then all men would be saved. The bible does not teach this concept.

I am certainly not a Calvinist and do not consider myself an Arminian.

If an Arminian has the following beliefs, "(1.) That they deny original sin; (2.) That they deny justification by faith; (3.) That they deny absolute predestination; (4.) That they deny the grace of God to be irresistible; and, (5.) That they affirm, a believer may fall from grace.

Then I am much closer to the Arminian. If number 2 were worded, "faith only", then I would completely agree.

However, I do believe in justification by faith. No principle is made more plain than that. I do not believe in justification by belief only.

By faith, the walls of Jericho fell down - Heb 11:30. Did they sit around and wait for them to fall? No, they were obedient to the instructions given. Did they earn it? Of course not. What merit is there in marching around some walls. God causes the walls to fall AFTER the faithful obedience, or by faith, the walls of Jericho fell down.

Really, Jesus also said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." - Mark 16:16.

Was Jesus incorrect? Mistaken? Kidding? Did he mean to say, "He that believeth is saved"?

No single verse tells us all that is required for salvation.

This is quite possibly the most used, yet with the least merit, agrument to say that baptism is not required for salvation.

Had the thief on the cross been baptized? We don't know, but that is of little consequence.

When Jesus made the statement, was it under the new law or the old law? Were there different requirements under the old law than under the new law?

Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The theif lived and died under the old law. We now have a new law that is in force. Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." - Mark 16:16

This verse is so simple a person HAS to have HELP to MISUNDERSTAND it. No other verse makes this void, and has to be in agreement with it.

Grace, "through faith".

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Yes, sons of God, through faith, because we have been immersed.

I think the Galatians were foolish for going back and trying to keep the old law when the new law was in place, and so did Paul.

 

Hello mman.

Belief is faith.

Did he mean to say, "He that believeth is saved"?
And the thief?
JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
What's that mean then? Do you believe in baptismal regeneration?

By the way that statement of your faith is good of you. I will read it properly a little later.

This is confusing because you said, "Jesus also said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." so it must be of consequence.

The Church of God has always been saved the same way. There is no distinction between the saints.

Do you believe in baptismal regeneration?

So they should have gone forward to a new one?

john.

 

Let's see what the bible says.

Heb 11:2 - By faith the elders obtain a good testimony. By what they believe or their actions? Well he goes on and gives us examples.

Yes faith has an element of belief as seen in Heb 11:3, but there is more.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel "offered" - Is faith here equivalent to belief? No. Did Abel believe? Yes. Did Abel offer? Yes. His belief plus his action is called faith.

By faith, Noah prepared an ark (Heb 11:7). Did Noah believe the ark into existence? No. Did he sit on a rock and wait for God to build it? No. He did all that God commanded him (Gen 6:22) and the bible calls that faith (Heb 11:7).

There are many more examples in Heb 11 of faith. God said without faith it is impossible to please him (Heb 11:6), then goes on to give example after example of biblical faith.

Heb 11:30 says that by faith the walls of Jericho fell. Was any action required for the walls to fall? Who caused the walls to fall? God did, but only after faithful obedience. The bible simply calls it faith (Heb 11:30).

The walls did not fall because of belief only. In fact belief only (faith without works) is useless according to James 2.

Agreed, but the Chruch was not established until the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2.

Different people mean different things by this question.

Does baptism have a role in the regeneration process? Yes, the bible teaches that. Peter told those on Pentecost in Acts 2:38 to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus "for" (eis) the remission of sins.

That is to obtain the remission of sins, not "because of" (hoti) the remission of sins.

If you are asking that I think there is some magic in the water and everyone who is immersed in water for any reason will have their sins remitted, then no.

john. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Since the old law was removed and nailed to the cross - Col 2:14, it was no longer valid. The Galatians were under faith (the new law) yet trying to impose portions of the old law. Read Gal 3:19-29.

 

That is everyman that ever lived and is still to live? What about the fetus millions are they told or just saved?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Well in my personal belief God saves the fetuses anyways. According to MANY Calvinists, they all go to hell. As for the many men, their conscience tells them there is a God and they reject this truth...thus rejecting His Son. Yes that grace was given to all men...hence the fact of missionaries...to go out and TELL people.

 

Hello mman.

If the men in question did not believe then they would not do.

Exactly, because he believed. He would have drowned if he had not believed.

JN 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

What does God require from us? To believe. Everything else flows through faith which is belief. Faith has this meaning and as we believe, as we have faith, so we do.

When the Israelites marched around Jerico they were doing what they believed God had told them to do. Faith. Faith and works are not opposed to each other in a Christian but work proceeds from faith.
Noah had to knock some bits of wood together but he would not have if he did not believe. That he did testified to his faith and it did make his faith that much greater as obedience always does. "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." Obedience is me.

The Church is true Israel and has existed since Adam and Eve. Though there is a difference to some degree I think.

Is there a regeneration process? Unless a man is born again is not a process. Saved by grace through faith and not by works is the gospel. Eph 2:8-9. Verse ten tells us that we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The works we do have been prepared for us to do. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 1 Cor 15:10.
Paul denies his works are his.

Who told you that?
Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

MK 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

What's this new law? Belief has always been the factor.

john.

 

Hello KJ.

So some go to Heaven without the use of their own free will. Why? God is a respecter of babies? Since this is what is claimed by Arminians when we say we are saved by God so you believe babies are saved by God! Nice one. How do you do that?

There is no scriptural warrant to believe they are all saved. They at least do not make it up.

Many may reject the truth when it is heard but not all men hear do they? PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, His laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know His laws.
They did not hear!
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
They did not hear did they? Answer the question please. Faith comes by hearing you lose. RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
Yes that grace was given to all men... Is wrong isn't it?

It is simple. The Lord decides who will love Him.

john.

 

Babies haven't sinned...therefore they will go to heaven. Besides, Jesus gave many clues that babies will go to heaven. He did say "let the little children come unto Me" right?

That grace was given to all men...that's why we have missionaries to go out and tell them. Hence..."how can they hear without a preacher...".

If the Lord decides who will love Him...is it really love? How could He love anyone when He "hates the wicked"? As I asked on another post...did God ever hate you? If so, why would He change His mind to love you now? Wouldn't all that changing His mind make Him unstable? Who would love an unstable God? Hmm...this Calvin/Arminian debate raises more questions in my mind everyday.