The Biblical Basis of 10 Catholic Distinctives

[JonC]

...

I am not sure of your post as you created a huge misquote of me. But looking through the amalgamation of my words and yours I'll simply respond with rhis:

It is by faith that we experience the healing of God. We repeatedly read this in Scripture.

The woman touches the fabric of Jesus' clothing and is healed. Jesus tells her that it was her faith - not His clothes - that healed.

Many Catholics are Christians. Their dependence on holy water and relics does not negate their faith.

I do find it interesting that the issue is not what is experienced but how.


Let me ask you- if I have experienced the same miracle of healing by prayer and faith then exactly why do I need to use holy water?

The use of holy water and relics seems to serve as objects to act as crutches for those who lack faith. Kinda like a child feels safe with a stuffed animal.


There are no instances in Scripture where Jesus actually healed by the use of holy water. But those weak in the Chriatian faith cannot believe Jesus could possibly heal without it....faith can't be enough because faith cannot be adequately controlled.

So they read their already held errors into the Bible.


The fact that you do not recognize that you have done this (we all do to a degree) is evidence against your proficiency in your claimed profession.

 

[JonC]

Ultimately there are a couple of problems with the Catholic use of holy water and relics -

1. As the OP has proven, there is no Biblical reference that corresponds with the Catholic use of holy water.

But there is an abundance of evidence that the Catholic use of "holy water" mirrors Roman (and prior to that Greek) paganism.

The only way to relate the Catholic use of holy water to Scripture is to start with the presupposed Catholic belief.

Even with relics, the OT example of the man touching Elisha's bones testified to the prophet (a verification of God's Word through the prophet). His bones were not removed in order to keep Isralites alive. The significance is fulfilled in Christ.

2. Christians do not deny the power of God. We know God still heals.

But where Christians attribute healing to God by faith, where we pray to make our requests known, Catholics take a different approach.

I attribute healings I have observed to God as answered prayer. Scripture states we have not because we ask not. Scripture simply tells us to pray and have faith.

Catholics, however, attribute healings to visiting statues, touching relics, and using holy water.

One can probably rightly argue that in both instances healing is by faith and by God. The best case is that Catholics need "crutches" because without them they lack faith.




I had looked forward to @Deadworm being here as a former Catholic and academic. I thought he would have studied the early church writings and therefore could help explain to Catholics the differences between Catholic practices and the Early Church (most often Catholics extract comments to "prove" their case). For example, he would have understood the difference between the early church practice and the Catholic Eucharist.

I no longer hold that expectation as the member appears to hold too many Catholic presuppositions. Rather than being a former Catholic the member appears to be a Catholic regardless of the denomination now attended.



I appreciate trying to readon across denominational lines. But I do not believe that blending the lines themselves are helpful. We can't adopt error (here Catholic paganism) in order to encourage conversation.

 

[Cathode]

I am not sure of your post as you created a huge misquote of me. But looking through the amalgamation of my words and yours I'll simply respond with rhis:

It is by faith that we experience the healing of God. We repeatedly read this in Scripture.

The woman touches the fabric of Jesus' clothing and is healed. Jesus tells her that it was her faith - not His clothes - that healed.

Many Catholics are Christians. Their dependence on holy water and relics does not negate their faith.

I do find it interesting that the issue is not what is experienced but how.


Let me ask you- if I have experienced the same miracle of healing by prayer and faith then exactly why do I need to use holy water?

The use of holy water and relics seems to serve as objects to act as crutches for those who lack faith. Kinda like a child feels safe with a stuffed animal.


There are no instances in Scripture where Jesus actually healed by the use of holy water. But those weak in the Chriatian faith cannot believe Jesus could possibly heal without it....faith can't be enough because faith cannot be adequately controlled.

So they read their already held errors into the Bible.


The fact that you do not recognize that you have done this (we all do to a degree) is evidence against your proficiency in your claimed profession.

Arguing from absence isn’t an argument.

However the use of spittle and mud shows healing conveyed through objects.

Paul’s handkerchief.

Those who understand spiritual warfare know that there is a physical element to it. Objects can be blessed or cursed objects. Those who practice black magic, voodoo, poripori magic, ensconce evil in objects, places and on persons. We use blessed objects called sacramentals and bless places and persons.

A friend of mine had a young daughter that could not sleep in her room in a new house they bought, she had terrible nightmares and she totally refused go in there.
I told him to spray holy water around the house, he did. On sprinkling holy water in that room, he heard a loud shrieking and the curtains blasted up and the shrieking continued outside receding into the distance.
This episode stunned him because he wasn’t a believer, he was doing it because he was at the end of his tether with his daughters suffering, and on the weight of my suggestion as a friend.
That night his daughter had no problem sleeping in that room anymore.

Evil spirits attach themselves to objects places and people, especially when invited, it’s like they stake an outpost a place for the darks realm.

When we bless, we stake a claim and outpost for the Kingdom, and angels guard those claims and outposts.

Simple water blessed in God’s Holy Name by a priest is our invitation to God’s goodness and grace to be conveyed with that water. A Holy Angel is then assigned to it carry out God’s blessing where ever it is used.

The dark attaches malevolent spirits with their curses, the Light attaches Holy Angels by blessings.

We can bless people, objects and places, but blessings given by Apostolic successors have way more power by line of authority in the Church, the Church of which the Lord spoke that hell can not prevail against.

That is why Catholic priests are far more effective in dealing with evil infestation. I’ve seen it many times, other denominations defer to Catholic priests in street ministry when they encounter these things.

Fathers can invoke powerful blessings on their children and grandchildren, because they have God given authority. They can pray special blessings of protection on their children and children’s possessions in The Holy Name God.

“For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.”

 

[JonC]

Arguing from absence isn’t an argument.

This is fakse.

arguing from absence IS the only argument when the issue is whether something has a Biblical origin.

If it is not in the Bible then one needs to seek a different source for the practice.


The woman touched Jesus' robe. Paul's cloth was touched. Both resulted in healing.

Here we have two choices. In both God healed. In one healing was by faith. In the other it was the material being touched.

Of course, Jesus constantly attributed God's healing to faith rather than the item touched. Catholics have a different view.


Blessings were never, Biblically, given through Apostolic successon. Even the Cathoilc view of priests (something foreign to the NT Scripture and Apostalic Church) harken to paganism.

That said, I don't doubt that people were healed. I just do not agree that it was by touching relics (I agree with Jesus).

Relics are aids, or crutches, for those of little faith.


Consider the Roman Catholic explanation for the veneration of icons. Priests defend their use by saying Catholics don't worship these objects but these are used, like a window, to see spiritual truths.

Now imagine Chriatians who can see these truths, experience God's blessings, know the healing of God....all without these "aids". It is a case of the less faithful defending their aids to those whose faith is complete.

 

[Cathode]

This is fakse.

arguing from absence IS the only argument when the issue is whether something has a Biblical origin.

If it is not in the Bible then one needs to seek a different source for the practice.

Well, then the Trinity would be false, since it’s not mentioned in the Bible.

We can see clearly in Scripture that grace and healing is conveyed through objects. Paul didn’t just write to them and say just have faith, at the touch of the object the grace of healing was imparted.

Protestants in general do not understand how the spiritual realm and warfare works because of their many misunderstandings of scripture.

Protestants don’t have any real devotion to the angels, everything seems more legalistic than spiritual.

 

[JonC]

Well, then the Trinity would be false, since it’s not mentioned in the Bible.

We can see clearly in Scripture that grace and healing is conveyed through objects. Paul didn’t just write to them and say just have faith, at the touch of the object the grace of healing was imparted.

Protestants in general do not understand how the spiritual realm and warfare works because of their many misunderstandings of scripture.

Protestants don’t have any real devotion to the angels, everything seems more legalistic than spiritual.

The Godhead is actually mentioned several times in the Bible.

That you were unaware is a bit alarming.

You are correct that Protestants are not devoted to angles (as Scripture warns against such) but to say we do not believe in angles is asinine.

That said, I do agree that many Protestants are legalistic. And that is no better than the paganism of the Catholic Church.

That said, most faithful Christians understand the spiritual realm and warfare on a deeper level than Catholics will allow. We do not need the aids you cherish because we have a stringer faith and access to the Source you gaze at your crutches to catch a glimpse.


Consider that many of us have experienced the miracles, the wonder, and the healings that you Catholics transverse the globe to glimpse, that you Catholics gaze at pieces of wood, metal and stone to get a peak. Yet we donthis mot by trying to see into a spiritual realm but actually stepping into that realm.

You have a choice - paganistic Catholic glimpses or enter this realm. You choose the former when you should embrace the latter.

 

[Cathode]

Here we have two choices. In both God healed. In one healing was by faith. In the other it was the material being touched.

And the third and biblical choice, God conveyed His healing grace through the touch of a relic of Paul.

Your understanding is unbiblical, it’s obvious and staring you in the face in scripture and you refuse to accept it.

 

[JonC]

And the third and biblical choice, God conveyed His healing grace through the touch of a relic of Paul.

Your understanding is unbiblical, it’s obvious and staring you in the face in scripture and you refuse to accept it.

My understanding is exactly Jesus' words.

Why do you think that healing grace would be transferred to fabric (especially since Jesus Himself negated this type of paganism when the woman touched His garment)?

How do you explain that non-Catholics experience the same healing grace without seeking out trinkets, without holy water?

Logic dictates that relics and holy water are meaningless simply because Chriatians recieve the sane graces without them.

 

[Cathode]

The Godhead is actually mentioned several times in the Bible.

That you were unaware is a bit alarming.

You are correct that Protestants are not devoted to angles (as Scripture warns against such) but to say we do not believe in angles is asinine.

“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Heb1:14

Catholics live this spirituality, we use angels all the time, I’ve met them. They serve us and we use them constantly. I sent angels after a motorcyclist who passed me at very high speed. He crashed up the road, and had no earthly business being alive let alone unscathed.

Yes there is a Godhead, but He operates through subordinates as well.

There is a whole spiritual ecology you guys ignore.

Grace and blessings was conveyed through people and objects in scripture, yet you guys deny what’s in front of your face, and don’t live this spirituality.

Christ our Lord sent subordinates with His Grace and Paul’s handkerchief was a subordinate means of conveying grace.

 

[JonC]

“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?” Heb1:14

Catholics live this spirituality, we use angels all the time, I’ve met them. They serve us and we use them constantly. I sent angels after a motorcyclist who passed me at very high speed. He crashed up the road, and had no earthly business being alive let alone unscathed.

Yes there is a Godhead, but He operates through subordinates as well.

There is a whole spiritual ecology you guys ignore.

Grace and blessings was conveyed through people and objects in scripture, yet you guys deny what’s in front of your face, and don’t live this spirituality.

Christ our Lord sent subordinates with His Grace and Paul’s handkerchief was a subordinate means of conveying grace.

Protestants live that spiritually as well.

But we do not devote ourselves to angles because Scripture condemns this practice.

I guess the main difference here is that Protestants do not look for subordinates as we have full and complete access to the Source.


My family did not seek out a relic or holy water, yet we experienced God's healing grace.

The difference is that Catholics seek subordinate aids to glimpse a spiritual realm while others walk in that spiritual realm.


Next time you gaze at a relic and catch a glimpse of this realm look around. If I see you I'll wave at ya.

 

[Cathode]

My understanding is exactly Jesus' words.

Why do you think that healing grace would be transferred to fabric (especially since Jesus Himself negated this type of paganism when the woman touched His garment)?

How do you explain that non-Catholics experience the same healing grace without seeking out trinkets, without holy water?

Logic dictates that relics and holy water are meaningless simply because Chriatians recieve the sane graces without them.

I’m not saying people can’t go directly to God, we do it all the time.

I prayed for a guy that was cured of advanced terminal lung cancer recently and he was healed.

However God can convey Grace through people and objects subordinately as well. It’s Scriptural.

Your exclusivist view is unscriptural.

 

[JonC]

Another example is the Catholic priesthood and Confession.

A Catholic confesses to a priest and seeks absolution of sins. Often this is accompanied by penance.

But when we sin we go directly to our Mediator. We confess before the congregation (the Body). But we are forgiven by our Mediator Himself. No penance required (but repentance is required).

 

[JonC]

I’m not saying people can’t go directly to God, we do it all the time.

I prayed for a guy that was cured of advanced terminal lung cancer recently and he was healed.

However God can convey Grace through people and objects subordinately as well. It’s Scriptural.

Your exclusivist view is unscriptural.

I disagree that it is Biblical (based on Jesus' words). But I don't hold those of a weak faith in contempt either.

It just seems to me that the Catholic Churvh is set on keeping its members weak and dependent on the organization.

I think it woukd be better for a Catholic to grow past those things and into maturity.


Imagine going directly to Christ as Mediator to confess and be forgiven. Imagine what He would tell you that a priest couldn't.

Imagine going directly to Christ as a Healer instead of seeking out a piece of cloth or wood.

 

[Cathode]

Protestants live that spiritually as well.

No they don’t. Not in my experience.

But we do not devote ourselves to angles because Scripture condemns this practice.

Where?

 

[Cathode]

I disagree that it is Biblical (based on Jesus' words). But I don't hold those of a weak faith in contempt either.

It just seems to me that the Catholic Churvh is set on keeping its members weak and dependent on the organization.

I think it woukd be better for a Catholic to grow past those things and into maturity.


Imagine going directly to Christ as Mediator to confess and be forgiven. Imagine what He would tell you that a priest couldn't.

Imagine going directly to Christ as a Healer instead of seeking out a piece of cloth or wood.

“so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” Acts 19:12

Wow, how Catholic of them? Not something you will see in protestant or baptist circles, bringing relics of saints to the sick and possessed to be healed and delivered.

Catholics do this all the time. This is not protestant or baptist spirituality here, it’s alien to them, and exclusively Catholic.

 

[JonC]

“so that even handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.” Acts 19:12

Wow, how Catholic of them? Not something you will see in protestant or baptist circles, bringing relics of saints to the sick and possessed to be healed and delivered.

Catholics do this all the time. This is not protestant or baptist spirituality here, it’s alien to them, and exclusively Catholic.

It doesn't say that piece of cloth rarger than the act of faith was the mode through which God healed. The mode was, of course, an affirmation (testimony) of the Aposles words (Scripture)

I believe Jesus was correct on that part. You don't. No biggie.


That said, it is not uniquely Catholic to seek relics. Many Protestants do as well.

But at the same time many Protestants know God's grace and miracles directly through the Source.

Why should I seek a piece of cloth when I can touch that same grace through faith in the Source.


If I can go directly to God and be healed then what need do I have of a piece of cloth, or a stick of wood, or piece of stone?

That is my question. You have not answered it yet.

 

[Cathode]

It doesn't say that piece of cloth rarger than the act of faith was the mode through which God healed. The mode was, of course, an affirmation (testimony) of the Aposles words (Scripture)

I believe Jesus was correct on that part. You don't. No biggie.


That said, it is not uniquely Catholic to seek relics. Many Protestants do as well.

But at the same time many Protestants know God's grace and miracles directly through the Source.

Why should I seek a piece of cloth when I can touch that same grace through faith in the Source.

If I can go directly to God and be healed then what need do I have of a piece of cloth, or a stick of wood, or piece of stone?

That is my question. You have not answered it yet.

Well not having faith that God has the power to convey His healing Grace through an object, you would have strenuously rejected touching Paul’s apron if you were one of the sick and possessed, of cause.

 

[Cathode]

Catholics bless our ordinary food to sanctify it so that it benefits us in body, mind and spirit by God’s Grace.
By invoking God’s Holy Name, His Word and prayer over our food, it becomes sanctified and a means of Grace and blessing.

So objects can be vehicles of Grace and blessing.

“and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” 1 Timothy 4.

So if food and drink can be made Holy by the word of God and prayer, water can also be made holy by the Word of God and prayer.

Holy water is made holy by the invoking of the Holy Name of God, His Word and prayer over it.
It is powerful because it is made Holy by God’s Name, Word and our prayer, evil hates it, and can not abide with it. God’s Name, Word and our prayer remains with the water by Grace.

We also sanctify all our actions by God’s Holy Name, His Word’s and prayer, our homes, family, pets, and friends.

We live this spirituality as Catholics. Objects become Holy and a means of Grace and blessing.

 

[Cathode]

We sanctify water, salt, oil, candles and incense by God’s Holy Name, Word and by prayer. These make up part of the Holy arsenal by which we conduct spiritual warfare. They have different uses.
These things are no longer ordinary, but holy. They are recognised by evil and evil is repelled by them.

I have seen many many things in spiritual warfare, and the power these holy things convey. They work.

Evil uses different objects and things to harm others, they are the opposite of the holy things. These bring strength to temptation, discouragement, malice, oppression, despair, torture, harassment and terror. They can have harmful physical and health effects, especially if blood sacrifice, blasphemy has been made over them, or fasting.

Don’t just bless and sanctify your dinner. Holy water can be found at the back of every Catholic Church, this has the Apostolic blessing on it. Very powerful in effect. Make use of it.

We have The Holy Name, The Word of God and our prayer intention that can be prayed over objects to make them holy and be persistent sentinels of Grace and Light.

 

[Cathode]

Let me ask you- if I have experienced the same miracle of healing by prayer and faith then exactly why do I need to use holy water?

The use of holy water and relics seems to serve as objects to act as crutches for those who lack faith. Kinda like a child feels safe with a stuffed animal.

“ Made holy by the word of God and prayer “ 1 Timothy 4:5

Do we make our dinner Holy as a crutch because we lack faith?

We have faith that God’s Grace and blessings can act through these objects for our physical and spiritual benefit.

Catholics don’t put limitations on God’s power to act through objects.

Objects can be made holy by the word of God and prayer, it’s the grace that makes them holy. This is Scriptural.

So what happens when Holy water is sprinkled in a house infested by evil. A lot happens, evil is repelled by it.

The water is holy, imbued by The Holy Name of God, The Word of God and our prayer intentions over it. Holiness is by God’s Grace and that holiness seriously effects what is evil and malevolent.

You could spread your sanctified dinner around a demonically infested person or place, but it’s far more practical to use holy water.