The Biblical Basis of 10 Catholic Distinctives

[JonC]

There should be Catholic Chaplin assigned to the hospital.

There is. He told her. She wants "her priest".

It's important to her. Her son (my coworker) is a "traditional Catholic" (Catholic by tradition rather than believing)....as a Baptist we'd say "nominal". He's just trying to look after what is important to his mom.

 

[Cathode]

There is. He told her. She wants "her priest".

It's important to her. Her son (my coworker) is a "traditional Catholic" (Catholic by tradition rather than believing)....as a Baptist we'd say "nominal". He's just trying to look after what is important to his mom.

I have seen this many times before.

There are people that hardly show up at Mass or only occasionally and don’t support their parish or priest, and don’t really believe but expect their priest to show up at the drop of a hat when they need them.

If they were truly practicing their faith, they would not be making special demands of their favourite priest but be extremely happy to be ministered to by any priest.
If they truly believed, receiving sacraments would be the most important thing.

My Uncle unfortunately was in this situation before he died, not attending Mass or practicing for decades but expecting a priest he liked to drive 5 hours to attend him. Told no, the priest was old and sick himself, he and his family became angry and critical about it. Lots of huffing and puffing, especially by his family who none believed at all.
Finally he was convinced to see a more local priest, and received the sacraments.

People who have been faithless for years, shouldn’t expect much at all.

As hard as it sounds, there is a certain justice in people dying as they lived.

I do feel for your friend, it is usually family that is left to organise unreasonable expectations here, for people that give the last things only an afterthought with special conditions entitlement.

It should be important to her to attend mass and be faithful for years, not important to be attended by one particular priest. It smacks of sentimental poo rather than a true belief in the faith.

Many people are caught out like this and arrive before The Almighty unshriven.

If they can’t get “ their “ priest , they will see no priest.

It’s childish, shallow and foolhardy.

 

[Cathode]

I remember the film, The Field with Richard Harris. Whose character recounts how he and his father brought in the hay harvest before a storm rather than get a priest for his dying mother.

Jon I think your friend should get any priest in the interim, if it is difficult get ahold of her priest, these situations aren’t to be mucked with.

 

[Cathode]

Actually, I have.

Many of the Catholic practices (holy water, the way Catholics observe the Eucharist, the Catholic priesthood) are identical to Roman paganism while those practices did not exist within Christianity for the first century.

Ignatius and Justin Martyr held the Catholic belief of the Eucharist and Catholic priesthood and they were killed by the Roman pagans for it.
So your assertion is nonsense.

We see these things progressively becoming common within the Catholic Church as Christianity was essentially mandated on pagan religions.

Evidence is the practices themselves and history of compulsory faith.

This is historically false. The Edict of Milan ended the persecution of Christians by the pagans, and brought in toleration of all religions.

“When you see that this has been granted to [Christians] by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made that we may not seem to detract from any dignity of any religion.” Edict of Milan.

Pagans could continue their religion so long as they did not force Christians to make sacrifices to pagan god’s as they had done in previous persecutions.

These communities were totally separate in religious practice, the pagans had been deadly persecutors of Christianity. They aren’t going to share religious practice.
This is the stupidest idea ever.

Further, the pagans had to give back all the property that had been taken from the Christians during the persecutions.

How do you think we got from a "priesthood of believers" to returning to a pagan priesthood justified by the levitical priesthood....holy water as used in Scripture to holy water used as Roman cults used holy water.....the "Host" not as the Supper in Scripture but a Christianized form of Roman paganism that was the flesh and blood of the pagan god....praying to entities to intercede as pagans prayed for the intercession of gods...viewing relics as infused with God's power as pagans viewed idols as embodying the power of gods....?

The Roman pagans did not use water like Catholics used Holy Water, this is prejudiced garbage assertion with no evidence.

 

[JonC]

Ignatius and Justin Martyr held the Catholic belief of the Eucharist and Catholic priesthood and they were killed by the Roman pagans for it.
So your assertion is nonsense.



This is historically false. The Edict of Milan ended the persecution of Christians by the pagans, and brought in toleration of all religions.

“When you see that this has been granted to [Christians] by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made that we may not seem to detract from any dignity of any religion.” Edict of Milan.

Pagans could continue their religion so long as they did not force Christians to make sacrifices to pagan god’s as they had done in previous persecutions.

These communities were totally separate in religious practice, the pagans had been deadly persecutors of Christianity. They aren’t going to share religious practice.
This is the stupidest idea ever.

Further, the pagans had to give back all the property that had been taken from the Christians during the persecutions.



The Roman pagans did not use water like Catholics used Holy Water, this is prejudiced garbage assertion with no evidence.

If you read their writings they did not believe in the Eucharist as Catholics do. Catholics trun to early writings but only in part (like with Scripture).

By their actual writings as a whole Ignatius and Justin Martyr held a view more akin to Luther than the Catholic Church.

Roman pagans used holy water exactly like Catholics use holy water. Not kinda. Not simply calling it "holy water". EXACTLY line Catholics use holy water.

We also see this in Greek paganism (it is commonly held that the Roman pagans adopted the use of holy water from Greek cults).

The Roman cults priests would bless a vessel of water. Cult members viewed this blessed water as sacred, conveying protection or blessings from the gods.

The Greeks included the vessel that the priest put out the temple toarch as being holy as well.


This is not how holy water was used in the Old Testament. But it is how Catholics use holy water.

Christians do not have priests (Christians have a High Priest in Christ and are a priesthood per Scripture).

 

[Oseas3]

Jon, I know you mean well. But I don’t think you have the full picture, and you are way off in weeds with your Catholic “ paganism “ idea.
Yes, we are in the Apocalypse now, and Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant will become obvious to you as the intensity increases and final battle approaches.

You are sleeping deeply like the foolish virgins in the darkness of this current time, the turn from the sixth to the seventh Day, the Lord's Day-2Peter 3:7-9, take a look, or seventh and last millennium, it is midnight on GOD's clock, understand?

Genesis 19--> Has you here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, thy daughters, and whatsoever you has,
BRING THEM OUT OF THIS PLACE, spiritually speaking,
FULL OF DEMONIC RELIGIONS AND CHURCHES INFESTED OF IDOLATRY AND WITCHICRAFT, FALSE DOCTRINES, DOCTRINES OF DEMONS.
Up, get you out of this demonic spiritual environment, for the Lord will destroy the satanic NATIONS around the world, world of Devil-Revelation 11:18-,
Haste thee, escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay you in all the plain(in your human and demonic perspective); escape to the mountain-Micah 4:1-3-, lest thou be CONSUMED.

Come out my people, that ye be not partakers of the sins of the wicked NATIIONS, and that ye receive not of their PLAGUES. For their sins have reached unto heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8) where even the dragon is sowing his tares with his messengers(Matthew 4:8-10 combined with Revelation 12:3-4), but GOD has now remembered of their iniquities.

We, the true and wise believers, like Daniel, who made known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions, that the King of Babylon, now the King of darkness, the dragon, has decreed to slay the wise men, yeah, we know that our GOD reveales the deep and secret things of the Evil (Daniel 3:10-20, take a look), there is a GOD in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8) that reveals secrets.

Remember, we speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto glory of the true believers, which none of the preachers of demonic religions of this current demonic world knew.

That said, now, even now, from now on, the saints shall Judge this demonic world-Matthew 12:36-37 combined with 1Corinthians 6:2-3-, and Daniel 7:26-27, and mainly Daniel 2:44-45, as follow:
44 And in the days of these kings shall the GOD of heaven(Ephesians 1:3-8) set up a Kingdom-Revelation 11:15-18-, which shall never be destroyed: and the Kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these(CURRENT NATIONS) kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain WITHOUT HANDS, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great GOD hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Be careful and get ready for the battle, be attentive to the demonic sounds that come out of the MOUTH of the MAN Beast of the sea and his messengers, and from the MOUTH of the dragon, the MAN of sin, who will FIRST manifest himself as messiah SOON(in the 1st half of the last week) and then, in the 2nd half of the last week, as Master of Torah, as False Prophet, and his messengers with him (John 5:43-47 and Revelation 13:11 and 16:13-15). Get ready

Blessed be the name of GOD for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are His, and He changes the times and the seasons: he removes kings, and sets up kings-Revelation 5:10- , take a look, He gives wisdom unto the wise-Daniel 12:3and 10, take a look, and knowledge to them that know understanding-Matthew 24:15:

We true believers thank Thee, and praise Thee, O GOD, father of our Lord JESUS Christ, who has given us wisdom and might, and has made known unto us now what we desired of Thee.

Even the King Nebuchadnezar said: Daniel 3:29- > Therefore I make a decree, That every people, NATION, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the GOD of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other GOD that can deliver after this sort.

Be sure, the Almight GOD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, will FULFILL LITERALLY what is written above, and the wicked NATIONS will be destroyed-Revelation 11:18 among many other biblical references. AMEN

 

[Mikoo]

Did it sort of look like this.

The Arks of the Covenants are heavily involved in the Genuine worship of God.

Mary is The Ark of The New Covenant.

The Ark of the Covenant is not worshipped, it is venerated as the Seat and Throne and Sanctuary of God on Earth, in the Old Covenant and New Covenant.

Nothing at all like what God had Israel doing. But definitely like the other blasphemous pictures.

 

[Mikoo]

The Ark of The Old Covenant had a crown, it is fitting that the Ark of the New Covenant have a crown as well.

“and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.“ Exodus 25

At the Great Atonement for all Israel Lev 16, The Ark was central.

The High Priest sprinkled blood of Sacrifice on and before the Ark.

“Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat.”

Christ the High Priest at the Atonement Sacrifice for the whole world, sprinkles His blood on and before Mary at the foot of the Cross.

Mary was together there central at The Atonement Sacrifice for All mankind.

Justifying blasphemy. Not Unexpected by members of the rc sect.

 

[Mikoo]

Only the profound understanding of Scripture reveals Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.
There is a great gulf between the profound understanding of scripture and the profane understanding of scripture.

The profane can read scripture all they want, but they will never uncover the depths of Scripture.

Wow. Absolutely no fear of God. Only the rc sect of misunderstanding (on purpose?!?) God's Word reveals this blasphemy.

 

[Cathode]

If you read their writings they did not believe in the Eucharist as Catholics do. Catholics trun to early writings but only in part (like with Scripture).

By their actual writings as a whole Ignatius and Justin Martyr held a view more akin to Luther than the Catholic Church.

False and prejudiced assertion without evidence.

These are Catholic Fathers that believed the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ, their writings only come to us through the Catholic Church.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Proven false again.

Roman pagans used holy water exactly like Catholics use holy water. Not kinda. Not simply calling it "holy water". EXACTLY line Catholics use holy water.

False. Prejudiced assertion without evidence.

So the pagans blessed the water in the Name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit did they.

We also see this in Greek paganism (it is commonly held that the Roman pagans adopted the use of holy water from Greek cults).

The Roman cults priests would bless a vessel of water. Cult members viewed this blessed water as sacred, conveying protection or blessings from the gods.

The Greeks included the vessel that the priest put out the temple toarch as being holy as well.

So what. Where is your evidence by the way or are you just asserting again.

This is not how holy water was used in the Old Testament. But it is how Catholics use holy water.

Fact is, holy water is Scriptural, you said it wasn’t, which is false.

Christians do not have priests (Christians have a High Priest in Christ and are a priesthood per Scripture).

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing” and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.” Ignatius to the Ephesians.

 

[JonC]

False and prejudiced assertion without evidence.

These are Catholic Fathers that believed the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ, their writings only come to us through the Catholic Church.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).

Proven false again.



False. Prejudiced assertion without evidence.

So the pagans blessed the water in the Name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit did they.



So what. Where is your evidence by the way or are you just asserting again.



Fact is, holy water is Scriptural, you said it wasn’t, which is false.



“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“I have, as to love, beheld all of you. May I always have joy of you, if indeed I be worthy of it. It is therefore befitting that you should in every way glorify Jesus Christ, who hath glorified you, that by a unanimous obedience "ye may be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment, and may all speak the same thing concerning the same thing” and that, being subject to the bishop and the presbytery, ye may in all respects be sanctified.” Ignatius to the Ephesians.

Actually it is not false and you are fully aware of the fact as we have discussed this in the past with the full documents.

Ignatius, for example, detailed that the bread and wine did not transform to blood and flesh but instead spoke of spiritual symbolism in terms of a Covenant.

Justin Martyr insisted that the elements did not change but the words "bread and wine" changed to signify a spiritual truth.

You know this because their words in full was already linked and discussed.

This is a problem called "dishonesty". When challenged wirh the whole of those writings you remained silent because they proved the Catholic understanding to be later than you wanted.

It is dishonest because here, on another thread, you go back to that error.



I never said holy water was not mentioned in the Old Testament. I said that the Catholic holy water is pagan. It is.

The Bible speaks of a priest using consecrated water mixed with dirt as a curse or a blessing when examining the faithfulness of a woman questioned about adultery.

This is not Catholic holy water. Catholics dont mix consecrated water with dirt to test a witness of women suspected of adultry.

Catholics use holy water as was used by pagan cults (to purify or bless) by application.


Christian congregations do have an overseer (or bishop...episkopē). These are men, husband of one wife, faithful in managing their household, not a new convert, etc.

I was speaking of a priest. Christian congregations do not have priests. Christians do not seek a priest to confess dins or gain absolution.

The Catholic model of a priesthood is modeled after pagan priests and "christianized" by appealing to the Levitical priesthood.

 

[Cathode]

The Truth has arms, the lie has teeth.

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”

When a man receives the Truth it becomes part of himself and builds him up.

 

[JonC]

The Truth has arms, the lie has teeth.

“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone should hear My voice and open the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.”

When a man receives the Truth it becomes part of himself and builds him up.

I agree.

The issue with the Catholic faith is not God's Word but those extra things that Catholics add as equal to or more important than Scripture.

That is a problem for Catholics. The Truth is there, but they find it insufficient. But that it is there means many will be saved despite Catholic dogma.

It would be different if Catholic rituals and practices were simply different expressions of Truth. But they have come to replace Truth.

 

[Cathode]

Actually it is not false and you are fully aware of the fact as we have discussed this in the past with the full documents.

Ignatius, for example, detailed that the bread and wine did not transform to blood and flesh but instead spoke of spiritual symbolism in terms of a Covenant.

Justin Martyr insisted that the elements did not change but the words "bread and wine" changed to signify a spiritual truth.

You know this because their words in full was already linked and discussed.

This is a problem called "dishonesty". When challenged wirh the whole of those writings you remained silent because they proved the Catholic understanding to be later than you wanted.

It is dishonest because here, on another thread, you go back to that error.

People can read the Fathers in their own words, and they don’t have your spin on them.

I never said holy water was not mentioned in the Old Testament. I said that the Catholic holy water is pagan. It is.

The Bible speaks of a priest using consecrated water mixed with dirt as a curse or a blessing when examining the faithfulness of a woman questioned about adultery.

This is not Catholic holy water. Catholics dont mix consecrated water with dirt to test a witness of women suspected of adultry.

Catholics use holy water as was used by pagan cults (to purify or bless) by application.

You are in ignorance here. It was not dirt, it was dust and the dust was salt.

"And every offering of your grain offering you shall season with salt; you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall offer salt."

All offerings were made with salt, salt was sprinkled over offerings before they were burned and the floor of the Tabernacle was covered in it. It was not something that could be swept away by the morning cleaner, no one could just enter there as the holiest place. So this salt was trampled under foot and became dust, which gives reference to another scripture, which I won’t go into the depths of here.

Catholic priests mix salt with holy water as I have already pointed out.

Christian congregations do have an overseer (or bishop...episkopē). These are men, husband of one wife, faithful in managing their household, not a new convert, etc.

I was speaking of a priest. Christian congregations do not have priests. Christians do not seek a priest to confess dins or gain absolution.

The Catholic model of a priesthood is modeled after pagan priests and "christianized" by appealing to the Levitical priesthood.

As Justin points out, the Gentiles were prophecied to be the sacrificial priesthood, with the Eucharistic sacrifice.

“Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: 'I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, says the Lord: but you profane it.' Malachi 1:10-12 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it]. ” Justin Martyr.

So the Eucharist is the sacrifice foretold of in Malachi made by the Gentiles.

So it’s a continuation of God’s sacrificial priesthood in the new Covenant, not pagan as you falsely assert without evidence.

 

[JonC]

People can read the Fathers in their own words, and they don’t have your spin on them.

They can, but I've noticed you leave out their explanations of their own words, pick out what you think you can spin to your view, and preach that to others.

We have already been through this.

When they said not that bread becomes flesh but the meaning of the elements change....well....thay proves what you left out was important and also explains why you left them out.

You couldn't spin Martyr and Ignatius' insistence that the elements don't change so you lift their words from the whole.

The worst part is you know this because I linked and discussed the whole with you already.

That means you are willing to decieve other people if it forwards your faith.

That is wrong.

 

[Cathode]

They can, but I've noticed you leave out their explanations of their own words, pick out what you think you can spin to your view, and preach that to others.

We have already been through this.

When they said not that bread becomes flesh but the meaning of the elements change....well....thay proves what you left out was important and also explains why you left them out.

You couldn't spin Martyr and Ignatius' insistence that the elements don't change so you lift their words from the whole.

The worst part is you know this because I linked and discussed the whole with you already.

That means you are willing to decieve other people if it forwards your faith.

That is wrong.

I presented evidence. The Fathers in their own words.

I quoted the Edict of Milan which shows your assertions are false.

You quoted nothing contemporary to these times to back your assertions.

Catholics were persecuted and killed by pagan Romans, there was no blending of the two religions.
Pagans were not going to synchronise with Christians beliefs, they were actively killing them. And Christians certainly were not adopting pagan rituals in their worship, the people that were killing them for being Christian.

This is the most nonsensical and ignorant assertion you make.

 

[JonC]

I presented evidence. The Fathers in their own words.

No. You lifted statements and ignored the whole. We have already had this discussion.

You know that Martyr and Ignatius did not believe the elements changed to flesh and blood but that the meaning of the elements changed because their words in full have been posted.

You know Scripture doesn't advocate Catholic holyvwater because you read those passages.

You know Paul's hankerchief did not heal because you read Jesus' words.

You are not being honest with yourself.