The Biblical Definition of JUSTIFICATION

[Van]

Does Acts of the Apostles 13:38-39 say we are declared righteous? Nope but there it is, listed as if it did.

What do these verses actually say? That forgiveness of sins through Christ is being announced and that the ones believing are being justified.

How about Romans 3:24?

It says we are justified through our redemption in Christ, thus we are placed into Christ spiritually, then justified by the washing of regeneration.

Thus the very verses to support the fiction that we were declared righteous, actually support the biblical truth that we were "made righteous"

 

[KenH]

Does Acts of the Apostles 13:38-39 say we are declared righteous? Nope but there it is, listed as if it did.

What do these verses actually say? That forgiveness of sins through Christ is being announced and that the ones believing are being justified.

How about Romans 3:24?

It says we are justified through our redemption in Christ, thus we are placed into Christ spiritually, then justified by the washing of regeneration.

Thus the very verses to support the fiction that we were declared righteous, actually support the biblical truth that we were "made righteous"

There is no difference in meaning between being declared righteous by the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness and being made righteous by the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness. Either word still points to the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. No one is saved who has not had Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to him or her. And the only ones who have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them are those whose sins have been imputed to Christ.

 

[Van]

There is no difference in meaning between being declared righteous by the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness and being made righteous by the imputation of Christ's perfect righteousness. Either word still points to the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. No one is saved who has not had Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to him or her. And the only ones who have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them are those whose sins have been imputed to Christ.

On and on folks, no verses support this complete fiction. The washing of regeneration or the circumcision of Christ "remove" something to make us righteous, rather than being declared, credited or considered righteous.

 

[KenH]

On and on folks, no verses support this complete fiction. The washing of regeneration or the circumcision of Christ "remove" something to make us righteous, rather than being declared, credited or considered righteous.

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying,

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Van]

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying,

Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(emphasis mine)

Sadly, the source of many mistaken doctrines arise from poor, vague, and ambiguous translations of God's inspired word.

Does crediting a person's worthless faith as righteous faith make a person righteous or only one aspect of that person? One aspect! In Romans 4:3 we see that it was only Abraham's faith and not Abraham himself that was credited as righteousness.

Question, if God forgives a specific sin, say David's adultery, does that "make" David righteous? No, of course not. David remained in Abraham's bosom with the rest of the OT Saints until Christ died, thus providing the means for the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.

 

[kyredneck]

I don't. You asked for an explanation of Romans 2:13 and I provided one.

K. Everything you posted is sound, but you didn't harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

 

[KenH]

K. Everything you posted is sound, but you didn't harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

As has been shown from the Scriptures, no mere human can be justified before God based on the works of the law. Thus, there is no disagreement between those two verses. No mere human can "do" the law perfectly, and without perfection no one can be justified before God.

 

[JonC]

K. Everything you posted is sound, but you didn't harmonize these:

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

I think it may help to indicate which law - i.e., "the Law of Moses" (the Law given through Moses to Israel) or "the Law of Christ" (as mentioned in Galatians 6).

I say this only to make sure we are not talking past one another on the board by making assumptions.

 

[kyredneck]

Do you realise that just about every heresy in history has been inflicted upon the Church by people thinking thinking that they ae wiser and more clever than those who have gone before. You are walking in the footsteps of Socinius and Charles Taze Russell. Or you would be if you were not parroting Roman Catholic doctrine. There is actually nothing new under the sun.

You and @AustinC, such accusers you are. Is that all you got? Same ol' parroting, RCC! <sqawk> COUNCIL OF TRENT! <sqawk> RCC! <sqawk> COUNCIL OF TRENT! <sqawk>

Proverbs 11:14 applies.

No, this applies:

9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1

Names, faces, places, change but the same things keep occurring over again, history runs in spirals. In another time Martin you could be a Pharisee or a Scribe or a RCC clergyman accusing of heresy those PROTESTING your unscriptural dogma. Odd, isn't it? The right to private judgement was a major theme coming out of the Reformation and you're basically saying it leads to heresy.

"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject."
Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment | Monergism

 

[kyredneck]

Why don't you lay out your doctrine of the 'two hearts' and amaze us with your wisdom?

K.

The 'two hearts' of Romans 2:

The unregenerate heart:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

The regenerate heart:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

 

[kyredneck]

I think it may help to indicate which law - i.e., "the Law of Moses" (the Law given through Moses to Israel) or "the Law of Christ" (as mentioned in Galatians 6).

2 Bear ye one another`s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Gal 6

12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7

8 Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well: Ja 2

8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2

 

[kyredneck]

3 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

there is no disagreement between those two verses

Lol, well, they're not apples and apples! As Gill rightly pointed out, the one is 'in the spirit not in the letter', and the other is not.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You and @AustinC, such accusers you are. Is that all you got? Same ol' parroting, RCC! <sqawk> COUNCIL OF TRENT! <sqawk> RCC! <sqawk> COUNCIL OF TRENT! <sqawk>

It happens to be true. You are parroting <squawk, squawk> Roman Catholic doctrine.

No, this applies:

9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Ecc 1

I'm glad you agree with me.

Names, faces, places, change but the same things keep occurring over again, history runs in spirals. In another time Martin you could be a Pharisee or a Scribe or a RCC clergyman accusing of heresy those PROTESTING your unscriptural dogma. Odd, isn't it? The right to private judgement was a major theme coming out of the Reformation and you're basically saying it leads to heresy.

"The Bible is a plain book. It is intelligible by the people. And they have the right, and are bound to read and interpret it for themselves; so that their faith may rest on the testimony of the Scriptures, and not on that of the Church. Such is the doctrine of Protestants on this subject."
Perspicuity of the Scriptures. The Right of Private Judgment | Monergism

'.....In which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures' 2 Peter 3:16.

 

[kyredneck]

It happens to be true. You are parroting <squawk, squawk> Roman Catholic doctrine.

Accuser, I challenge you to pinpoint exactly where I've promulgated RCC doctrine.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

K.

The 'two hearts' of Romans 2:

The unregenerate heart:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;

The regenerate heart:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

Amen! Thank you for proving my point. John 3:7. 'Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.'
Before a man is born again, he can do nothing to save oneself, God must regenerate the hard and impenitent heart. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and that very faith is the gift of God because the unregenerate heart cannot generate faith.
Having once been born anew by the Holy Spirit, then, and only then he can perform the good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10). The Spirit writes again His law upon our hearts, so wonderfully foreshadowed in Exodus 34.

 

[KenH]

We should all bear in mind what the purpose of the law is. It is to cause us to repelled by our corrupt hearts and rush to Christ and look to His perfect righteousness alone for salvation, knowing that we are mere worms.

Galatians 3:19-22 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 7:13-25 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Accuser, I challenge you to pinpoint exactly where I've promulgated RCC doctrine.

You have consistently denied the Doctrine of Justification by Faith alone.
You must know that Canon XI of the Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who promotes such a view, and so do you.
If you have a different theory to that of the Church of Rome, let's hear it. But I do assure you that the Reformers, Puritans, Baptists and others were all aware that James 2 is in the Bible. Just trotting out a few verses from there does not prove your point, nor that of Rome. James 2 cannot contradict a myriad of texts from other parts of the Bible, nor indeed vice versa. Several people have explained to you how they are to be reconciled, but you just scoff and trot out the same verses again.


Finally, let's treat each other with respect. I will if you will. You may think I don't deserve respect, and as a matter of fact I don't think you deserve it either. But let's try at least to act civilly towards each other.

 

[kyredneck]

Why don't you lay out your doctrine of the 'two hearts' and amaze us with your wisdom? But that's not your style which is simply to pour your rather pathetic scorn on others.

Amen!

That's quite the change in attitude Martin. I'm happy to have amazed you. I'm amazed that you've never seen 'the two hearts' of Romans 2 before.

Thank you for proving my point.

What point is that Martin? There's nothing new here. I've always consistently declared regeneration before faith, that the spirit is the source of works and faith. That's the gist of the 'two hearts' of Romans 2, that the heart is the source of both evil and good actions among men. Matthew 5:6, Matthew 15:19

I think your dogma requires you to believe that faith is the source of our works. This undoubtedly has it's roots in your system's erroneous interpretation in the book of James.

John 3:7. 'Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.'

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

This absolutely occurs before, often long before, 'coming to the light', i.e, hearing and believing the gospel.

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

...and works can and do precede faith, i.e., 'coming to the light'

You have consistently denied the Doctrine of Justification by Faith alone.

I have consistently shown that your system's 'justification by faith alone' is not only unscriptural, it's anti-scriptural because scripture explicitly states that justification is by works and not only by faith.

You've failed the challenge to pinpoint exactly where I've promulgated RCC doctrine, because it doesn't exist. You've wrongly accused me, and still are.

Here's another; I challenge you to produce a single passage from scripture that states that justification is by faith alone. FYI, that doesn't exist either.

And another; I challenge you to produce a 'final judgement' passage from scripture that even mentions our faith. FYI, it doesn't exist either. The final judgement is all about works.

Finally, let's treat each other with respect. I will if you will. You may think I don't deserve respect, and as a matter of fact I don't think you deserve it either. But let's try at least to act civilly towards each other.

K. Stop falsely accusing me.