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The Biblical Doctrine of Condign Merit
- Thread starter 7-Kids
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trying2understand
New Member
Then it is your belief that individuals will be judged based their residence with arbritary political boundries? Because one is born in within the geography of a particular nation, one will end up in heaven or hell based on the judgement of that nation?
If there is within a nation one person who fed the hungry, will that nation be counted as a sheep?
Or is it that all persons within that nation must have fed the hungry?
Or is it by a majority count?
Then it is your belief that individuals will be judged based their residence with arbritary political boundries? Because one is born in within the geography of a particular nation, one will end up in heaven or hell based on the judgement of that nation?
If there is within a nation one person who fed the hungry, will that nation be counted as a sheep?
Or is it that all persons within that nation must have fed the hungry?
Or is it by a majority count? </font>[/QUOTE]No one knows exactly how the Lord will do this; it is up to Him. But I do know this. I have never met a Muslim yet that is not anti-semitic. That may give you a hint. For the most part the U.S. and Canada support Israel, though there are minorities within each nation that are clearly anti-semitic. God is sovereign. He knows the hearts of all men. This is a judgement of nations, not individuals. That is what the context says. Exactly how he carries it out is not told. I leave it in God's hands.
DHK
trying2understand
New Member
Not all hearts are the same within any nation.
How can you know that your interpretation is correct if you can't explain it or undrstand it?
No one understands everything. We understand as much as is revealed to us. That is why it is important not to read into the Scripture those things that are not there. We look at facts:
Christ addresses the nations.
It is to the nations of the world that he is speaking.
What is the time frame. It is apparent that the time frame is still future. He uses the future tense. The event has not happened yet.
Thus he is judging the nations, but relative to what? He uses the term "my brethren." The nations will be judged according to how they treated "my brethren." This can only have one of two possible meanings--all Bible-believing Christians (the Bride), or the Jewish nation. In other words, does it mean spiritual brethren or national brethren? Since he is talking about the nations the more natural interpretation would be the nation of Israel, of which Christ came from.
In the Millennial Kingdom Christ will reign 1000 years from his throne in Jerusalem (as Scriptures tell us elsewhere). This passage tells us of a specific judgement different from others called a judgement of nations. We are told that he will separate the nations, as he will separate the sheep from the goats. He gives the reasons why: those that were kind to my brethren, and those that were not. He does not say anything about exceptions, so we must leave that in His hands, and be content to say "I don't know." The Lord will deal with that when He comes.
DHK
Christ addresses the nations.
It is to the nations of the world that he is speaking.
What is the time frame. It is apparent that the time frame is still future. He uses the future tense. The event has not happened yet.
Thus he is judging the nations, but relative to what? He uses the term "my brethren." The nations will be judged according to how they treated "my brethren." This can only have one of two possible meanings--all Bible-believing Christians (the Bride), or the Jewish nation. In other words, does it mean spiritual brethren or national brethren? Since he is talking about the nations the more natural interpretation would be the nation of Israel, of which Christ came from.
In the Millennial Kingdom Christ will reign 1000 years from his throne in Jerusalem (as Scriptures tell us elsewhere). This passage tells us of a specific judgement different from others called a judgement of nations. We are told that he will separate the nations, as he will separate the sheep from the goats. He gives the reasons why: those that were kind to my brethren, and those that were not. He does not say anything about exceptions, so we must leave that in His hands, and be content to say "I don't know." The Lord will deal with that when He comes.
DHK
What is a 'good' work? Who defines what a good work is and is not? What qualifies?
Works are quite a bit like relative morality. I may think I am doing good, but in fact I am not. So, before we go any further, can you please describe for me what a good work is and then list them all
Thanks,
jason
trying2understand
New Member
DHK, you are interpretting "My brethren" as the Jews?
I'd say that you are yet again twisting Scriptures to fit your preconceived notions.
I'd say that you are yet again twisting Scriptures to fit your preconceived notions.
trying2understand
New Member
My definition of works: Acts of love and charity that are motivated by the Holy Spirit, directed either towards others or God.
A comprehensive list would be nearly impossible to produce.
The controling authority would be God, imparted to us thorugh His moral laws.
neal4christ
New Member
Actually, he did have a good work, at least in my assessment. He defended Christ by speaking up to the other theif. He had to believe in Christ before he could speak up and defend him. But nonetheless, I would classify that defense as a good work.
In Christ,
Neal
So a work has to be motivated by the holy spirit?
How does that help someone who is supposed to do it to keep being saved? I mean, if it isn't from me, then what good is it?
If the only good works are those motivated by the holy spirit, then giving 10 million dollars to charity that wasn't motivated by the holy spirit is useless?
How do you know something is motivated by the holy spirit? How can I tell if something is motivated by the holy spirit and not by me...since we have established that only works motivated by the holy spirit are 'good' works, I don't want to waste time doing good works not motivated by the holy spirit.
Which moral laws? Where is that list? Does intention mean anything? Do you see where this is going?
jason
trying2understand
New Member
Are you implying that there is good in you that is not because of God?
Another baptist that doesn't really believe what baptists preach?
If the only good works are those motivated by the holy spirit, then giving 10 million dollars to charity that wasn't motivated by the holy spirit is useless? [?QUOTE] It sounds like you are argueing for salvation by works.
It sounds like you don't believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us.
Another example of a baptist that doesn't really believe what baptists preach?
God's moral laws. Read your Bible.
Intention relates to being motivated by the Holy Spirit.
Yes. You appear to intend to reduce this discussion to the ridiculous so as to try to claim some sort of victory.
State your core belief as to salvation and I can do the same with that discussion. But that would only be silly and fruitless. Wouldn't it?
No, I am not implying anything. I am asking you to think about your position a little more clearly.
And secondly, for probably the 100th time, I'm not baptist. I am christian.
It sounds like you are argueing for salvation by works.
</font>[/QUOTE]How? I was asking you to rethink you position, think it through a little more clearly.
Well, thanks for answering the question. So, why don't you go ahead and do that.
And if the holy spirit talks to us about works, why can't he talk to us about doctrine, something you seem to be against (always harping on DHK and others about it). Consitency is your friend.
God's moral laws. Read your Bible.
</font>[/QUOTE]That is it? That is what it comes down to for you? All of the sudden the bible is the only thing we need to determine good works? Man, you flip flop more than Kerry. So, the bible isn't all we need for doctrine, but it is for works. We can't fully interpret the bible, or interpret it correctly for doctrine, but we can for works? Man, you have some serious 'splaining to do.
That is not an answer. It is a side step. So, does intention matter? If one means to do good, but in the process does harm, was it a good work? Answer it this time.
Yes. You appear to intend to reduce this discussion to the ridiculous so as to try to claim some sort of victory.
</font>[/QUOTE]1. I have never claimed victory in a debate, it would be a fallacy to do so and we all know how big on fallacies I am.
2. I am merely asking you to clearly state you positions. So if I am reducing this discussion to your 'ridiculous' claims, then so be it!
Uhm, that wasn't my question...so...no red herrings right now. And, I am pretty sure you know what my position is, but I'll explain it in detail later.State your core belief as to salvation and I can do the same with that discussion. But that would only be silly and fruitless. Wouldn't it?
For now, how about you answer the questions.
jason
trying2understand
New Member
Jason, I did answer your questions.
You simply choose to not acknowledge that I have.
You ask for a complete list of good works. That is just silly.
Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. Can you list all the ways to do this?
You simply choose to not acknowledge that I have.
You ask for a complete list of good works. That is just silly.
Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. Can you list all the ways to do this?
Do you didn't. Go back and read the posts again. You answered one (1) question. After that you tried to side step all the questions. My guess you realized your position was untenable so you attempted to deflect. Just a guess.
It was to prove a point, one which might have been too subtle.
The point is that you cannot say if a work is good or not, nor can you say with certainity if a work is guided by the holy spirit. If that is the case, what good is a work?
This is really quite a simple idea: Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing more, nothing less.
Where do works come into play? After you are already saved, they are the fruit of that salvation. But, as has been already stated, you don't need works for salvation...you can be saved with 0 good works or 10E1000000 good works. You can also be unsaved with 0 good works or 10E1000000 good works...so what good are these good works in salvation, what role do they play in salvation? None.
I really don't know why this is even in argument.
jason
trying2understand
New Member
You do see what you are doing here do you not?
If you can not know that an act of love and charity is motivated by the Holy Spirit, how can you know that you have faith that saves?
I have been told several times that the way to know that you have been saved, and not merely fooling yourself, is because being saved is followed by good works.
Since you can't know if good works are of the Holy Spirit, how do you know that you are saved?
You could fool yourself into thinking that you are saved (when you aren't) and then merely continue to fool yourself by exhibiting a false fruit of good works that aren't really good becasue they aren't of the Holy spirit.
The logical end to your arguement then is that no one can ever know if they are saved or not.
As to justification by faith alone: this is in direct conflict with what James tells us. Was he lying? Are the Scriptures wrong?
trying2understand
New Member
Then you believe that a person can have a one time instantaneous moment of faith and be saved, and then spend the entire rest of his life without a single fruit of good work and die and go straight to heaven right? God will look at him and say, "Well done, my good and faithful servent."?
I know exactly what I am doing. The question is, can you make the connections.
1. I have never said you cannot tell what is right and what is guided by the holy spirit. I asked you how one knows. I have never tipped my hand and actually told you what I believe. What I think is irrelevant to shooting holes in your illogical scenerio.
2. You make a logical fallacy.
If A then B.
is not
Because B, then A.
I think it is safe to say you should not make logical conclusions.
How about you simply answer the questions first. Then we can discuss the questions and answers. Please stop the red herrings. Man this gets old.
have you ever even read it? How about a serious critique of it? One not by the CC? In Context?
The meaning of James is not that works are required for salvation (which would be in direct conflict with every other salvation passage in the bible...hmm...one vs every other passage....CONTEXT PEOPLE, CONTEXT).
So, if that is not the case, what could it mean? Hmmm, I wonder (actually, I don't, but you get the idea).
Jason