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Then it is your belief that individuals will be judged based their residence with arbritary political boundries? Because one is born in within the geography of a particular nation, one will end up in heaven or hell based on the judgement of that nation?Originally posted by DHK:
Why do you say I am reading into it? Look at your own post. You yourself posted:
The Son of Man will judge the Nations
That seems pretty clear to me; you must agree.
Then it is your belief that individuals will be judged based their residence with arbritary political boundries? Because one is born in within the geography of a particular nation, one will end up in heaven or hell based on the judgement of that nation?Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
Why do you say I am reading into it? Look at your own post. You yourself posted:
The Son of Man will judge the Nations
That seems pretty clear to me; you must agree.
Not all hearts are the same within any nation.Originally posted by DHK:
No one knows exactly how the Lord will do this; it is up to Him. But I do know this. I have never met a Muslim yet that is not anti-semitic. That may give you a hint. For the most part the U.S. and Canada support Israel, though there are minorities within each nation that are clearly anti-semitic. God is sovereign. He knows the hearts of all men. This is a judgement of nations, not individuals. That is what the context says. Exactly how he carries it out is not told. I leave it in God's hands.
DHK
What is a 'good' work? Who defines what a good work is and is not? What qualifies?Originally posted by trying2understand:
Is it possible to be saved if one does not have good works?
I understand that works alone will not save you.
I understand that we must have faith in Christ and accept His sacrifice.
But is it possible to be saved if one does not have good works?
A simple yes or no will do.
What do you say it means?Originally posted by trying2understand:
DHK, you are interpretting "My brethren" as the Jews?
I'd say that you are yet again twisting Scriptures to fit your preconceived notions.
My definition of works: Acts of love and charity that are motivated by the Holy Spirit, directed either towards others or God.Originally posted by jasonW*:
Still waiting for the definition of a good work and the list that should logically follow.
And, by what authority was the list compiled?
Actually, he did have a good work, at least in my assessment. He defended Christ by speaking up to the other theif. He had to believe in Christ before he could speak up and defend him. But nonetheless, I would classify that defense as a good work.Yes, the thief on the cross was.
So a work has to be motivated by the holy spirit?Originally posted by trying2understand:
My definition of works: Acts of love and charity that are motivated by the Holy Spirit, directed either towards others or God.
A comprehensive list would be nearly impossible to produce.
The controling authority would be God, imparted to us thorugh His moral laws.
Are you implying that there is good in you that is not because of God?Originally posted by jasonW*:
So a work has to be motivated by the holy spirit?
If the only good works are those motivated by the holy spirit, then giving 10 million dollars to charity that wasn't motivated by the holy spirit is useless? [?QUOTE] It sounds like you are argueing for salvation by works.
It sounds like you don't believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us.How do you know something is motivated by the holy spirit? How can I tell if something is motivated by the holy spirit and not by me...since we have established that only works motivated by the holy spirit are 'good' works, I don't want to waste time doing good works not motivated by the holy spirit.
Another example of a baptist that doesn't really believe what baptists preach?
God's moral laws. Read your Bible.Which moral laws? Where is that list? Does intention mean anything?
Intention relates to being motivated by the Holy Spirit.
Yes. You appear to intend to reduce this discussion to the ridiculous so as to try to claim some sort of victory.Do you see where this is going?
State your core belief as to salvation and I can do the same with that discussion. But that would only be silly and fruitless. Wouldn't it?![]()
No, I am not implying anything. I am asking you to think about your position a little more clearly.Originally posted by trying2understand:
Are you implying that there is good in you that is not because of God?
Another baptist that doesn't really believe what baptists preach?
It sounds like you are argueing for salvation by works.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If the only good works are those motivated by the holy spirit, then giving 10 million dollars to charity that wasn't motivated by the holy spirit is useless?
Well, thanks for answering the question. So, why don't you go ahead and do that.It sounds like you don't believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to us.
Another example of a baptist that doesn't really believe what baptists preach?
God's moral laws. Read your Bible.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Which moral laws? Where is that list? Does intention mean anything?
That is not an answer. It is a side step. So, does intention matter? If one means to do good, but in the process does harm, was it a good work? Answer it this time.Intention relates to being motivated by the Holy Spirit.
Yes. You appear to intend to reduce this discussion to the ridiculous so as to try to claim some sort of victory.</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do you see where this is going?
Uhm, that wasn't my question...so...no red herrings right now. And, I am pretty sure you know what my position is, but I'll explain it in detail later.State your core belief as to salvation and I can do the same with that discussion. But that would only be silly and fruitless. Wouldn't it?![]()
Do you didn't. Go back and read the posts again. You answered one (1) question. After that you tried to side step all the questions. My guess you realized your position was untenable so you attempted to deflect. Just a guess.Originally posted by trying2understand:
Jason, I did answer your questions.
You simply choose to not acknowledge that I have.
It was to prove a point, one which might have been too subtle.You ask for a complete list of good works. That is just silly.
Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. Can you list all the ways to do this?
You do see what you are doing here do you not?Originally posted by jasonW*:
The point is that you cannot say if a work is good or not, nor can you say with certainity if a work is guided by the holy spirit. If that is the case, what good is a work?
This is really quite a simple idea: Salvation is by grace through faith. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then you believe that a person can have a one time instantaneous moment of faith and be saved, and then spend the entire rest of his life without a single fruit of good work and die and go straight to heaven right? God will look at him and say, "Well done, my good and faithful servent."?Originally posted by jasonW*:
Where do works come into play? After you are already saved, they are the fruit of that salvation. But, as has been already stated, you don't need works for salvation...you can be saved with 0 good works or 10E1000000 good works. You can also be unsaved with 0 good works or 10E1000000 good works...so what good are these good works in salvation, what role do they play in salvation? None.
I really don't know why this is even in argument.
Funny, I don't remember saying that.Originally posted by trying2understand:
Then you believe that a person can have a one time instantaneous moment of faith and be saved, and then spend the entire rest of his life without a single fruit of good work and die and go straight to heaven right? God will look at him and say, "Well done, my good and faithful servent."?
I know exactly what I am doing. The question is, can you make the connections.Originally posted by trying2understand:
You do see what you are doing here do you not?
1. I have never said you cannot tell what is right and what is guided by the holy spirit. I asked you how one knows. I have never tipped my hand and actually told you what I believe. What I think is irrelevant to shooting holes in your illogical scenerio.If you can not know that an act of love and charity is motivated by the Holy Spirit, how can you know that you have faith that saves?
I have been told several times that the way to know that you have been saved, and not merely fooling yourself, is because being saved is followed by good works.
I think it is safe to say you should not make logical conclusions.Since you can't know if good works are of the Holy Spirit, how do you know that you are saved?
You could fool yourself into thinking that you are saved (when you aren't) and then merely continue to fool yourself by exhibiting a false fruit of good works that aren't really good becasue they aren't of the Holy spirit.
The logical end to your arguement then is that no one can ever know if they are saved or not.
have you ever even read it? How about a serious critique of it? One not by the CC? In Context?As to justification by faith alone: this is in direct conflict with what James tells us. Was he lying? Are the Scriptures wrong?