trying2understand
New Member
What questions are unanswered?
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The Biblical Doctrine of Condign Merit
- Thread starter 7-Kids
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trying2understand
New Member
jason, this realyy shouldn't be that tough for you.
Acts of love and charity.
You don't need to do a lot of interpretting of Scripture to know what these things are. God put it on our hearts when we were created. Little children naturally know when they are loving someone or hurting them. It is only as we harden our hearts through sin that we blind ourselves to knowing or caring about it.
There are examples in Scripture, feed the hungry, care for the sick... etc.
No greater love than to lay down your life for another.
Like I said, it's not that hard to sort out.
As to intention, yes, intention matters.
If you accidentally do unforeseeable harm when you are trying to do good, it is judged differently than if you do harm without caring or on purpose.
Now, perhaps you could tell me what your as yet unspecified point to all this is.
Acts of love and charity.
You don't need to do a lot of interpretting of Scripture to know what these things are. God put it on our hearts when we were created. Little children naturally know when they are loving someone or hurting them. It is only as we harden our hearts through sin that we blind ourselves to knowing or caring about it.
There are examples in Scripture, feed the hungry, care for the sick... etc.
No greater love than to lay down your life for another.
Like I said, it's not that hard to sort out.
As to intention, yes, intention matters.
If you accidentally do unforeseeable harm when you are trying to do good, it is judged differently than if you do harm without caring or on purpose.
Now, perhaps you could tell me what your as yet unspecified point to all this is.
Sorry. Just found the thread again....here we go, again.
What if I take care of the sick because I like taking care of the sick, not because I feel it is the right thing to do? Some people actually like being doctors (my wife for one). That isn't as good a work as someone who hates taking care of the sick but does it anyway?
Ancillary points are to get you thinking about something you obviously accept at face value. With the achievement of thought, I can get you to recognize the absolute idiocy of a works based system (thereby achieving #1 as well).
jason
It isn't. I am just being difficult as you seem to not understand what you say.
And these are? What defines love and charity? To what degree must something be of love and charity to qualify?
Uh huh. So, what you are saying is that we now follow our heart?
Again, so does it have to be driven by the holy spirit and does intent truley matter (what you just said points to intent not mattering)?
So, if I care for my wife, that is a good work? Is it 'enough' to save me? What is enough?
Really? The more you talk, the more questions I have and the less obvious this becomes. A works based salvation system (anything that includes work in salvation) is inherently flawed for just the reasons I have asked you above: how much is enough? to what degree? does intent matter?
So if I actually do good, but I wanted to do it for tax purposes (giving all my money to charity, the church), that isn't a good work? Or it isn't as "good" a work as a real good work (what is a real good work?).
What if I take care of the sick because I like taking care of the sick, not because I feel it is the right thing to do? Some people actually like being doctors (my wife for one). That isn't as good a work as someone who hates taking care of the sick but does it anyway?
The same thing the point always is; to show you how the idea of a works based salvation is void of any true validity.
Ancillary points are to get you thinking about something you obviously accept at face value. With the achievement of thought, I can get you to recognize the absolute idiocy of a works based system (thereby achieving #1 as well).
jason
trying2understand
New Member
So that is the basis for your confusion.
As a Catholic, I don't believe in a works based system.
Yes you do. As a catholic you view works as necassary to the salvation process. This is what I am calling a works based system (anything that includes works in salvation).Originally posted by trying2understand:
So that is the basis for your confusion.
As a Catholic, I don't believe in a works based system.
Maybe I shouldn't call it that, but I did and I explained what I meant.
jason
trying2understand
New Member
Jason, based on your definition, I would hazard to say that you then also believe in a works based system of salvation.
Tell me, is repentance necessary for salvation?
If yes, then you believe in a system of faith and repentance. In other words, faith plus the work of repentance.
1. you are sidestepping the issues and questions, again.Originally posted by trying2understand:
Jason, based on your definition, I would hazard to say that you then also believe in a works based system of salvation.
Tell me, is repentance necessary for salvation?
If yes, then you believe in a system of faith and repentance. In other words, faith plus the work of repentance.
2. who defines repentance as a work...getting back to the questions that I already asked!
trying2understand
New Member
I'm sorry, I missed the question. Could you restate it?
[/QUOTE]2. who defines repentance as a work...getting back to the questions that I already asked!
I dunno. It's usually the non-Catholic party that is concerned about works.
Lets look at it this way to avoid that problem:
Will you agree that repentance is not the same as faith?
If you will conceed to that, and also agree that repentance is necessary to being saved, then being saved is a matter of faith and repentance.
In other words, not faith alone.
I don't want to do this. You are ignoring all the interesting questions that would challenge you. Instead you are trying to turn it around. Bad T2U! Bad!Originally posted by trying2understand:
I dunno. It's usually the non-Catholic party that is concerned about works.
Lets look at it this way to avoid that problem:
Will you agree that repentance is not the same as faith?
If you will conceed to that, and also agree that repentance is necessary to being saved, then being saved is a matter of faith and repentance.
In other words, not faith alone.
And, did I ever say, faith alone? I think this thing called the bible says grace alone, through faith. Part of God's grace is the ability for us mortals to repent from our sins. And....enough of a sidetrack....answer the questions (at this point there might well be about a 100 unaswered questions).
jason
trying2understand
New Member
Actually, I keep asking you for the question.Originally posted by jasonW*:
I don't want to do this. You are ignoring all the interesting questions that would challenge you. Instead you are trying to turn it around. Bad T2U! Bad!
I can't answer it until you ask it.
So we are saved by grace? Great, I agree that without God's grace, no one can enter Heaven.
But what about faith and repentance?
Can you be saved without them?
Seriously, I'm done. This is getting annoying (no smiley faced need right now). I kept posting the questions, kept reasking the same general questions and you avoided them. So, until you can take the topic seriously, I think we should just set it aside.Originally posted by trying2understand:
Actually, I keep asking you for the question.
I can't answer it until you ask it.
So we are saved by grace? Great, I agree that without God's grace, no one can enter Heaven.
But what about faith and repentance?
Can you be saved without them?
If or when you have thought about it enough and feel comfortable actually discussing the topic, we can start over.
Until then....
jason
PS. Go UConn
trying2understand
New Member
Gee... I would think that asking you to state your questions several times would have given you the impression that I am attempting to discuss this with you.
I'm sorry, but this is a somewhat lengthy thread, and I'm just not sure of exactly what question it is that you keep referring too.
When you are up to it, how about asking your question and I will try to answer it for you.
OK?
Originally posted by jasonW*:
[QB]2 Timothy 2:25 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;Originally posted by trying2understand:
Actually, I keep asking you for the question.
I can't answer it until you ask it.
So we are saved by grace? Great, I agree that without God's grace, no one can enter Heaven.
But what about faith and repentance?
Can you be saved without them?
repentance is a gift from God.
As you see below we are saved by Grace thought faith then come the works after you are saved.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Brother Adam
New Member
Yes, within the bounds of a covenant relationship.
Only if your a Catholic.
One is saved if they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, covenants notwithstanding. Not everyone believes in covenantal theology--I am one of them. By your definition it would be impossible for me to be saved because I am outside of your imaginary unbiblical covenant.
DHK
Brother Adam
New Member
Peace be with you DHK.
Luke 22:20 (ESV)
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
Luke 22:20 (ESV)
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."
John Gilmore
New Member
"Covenant" is a poor translation. The correct word is "testament". Only one party is necessary for a testament. There is no covenant in Holy Communion. Christ freely gives us His body and blood without any merit, work, or worthiness in us.