The Biblical Doctrine of Election: It is Specific

[webdog]

So are you saying they thwart the sovereign will of God?

Did Christ not say He wanted to gather Israel under His wing, but they were not willing? Did Christ remain sovereign while Israel thwarted what Christ wanted?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Did Christ not say He wanted to gather Israel under His wing, but they were not willing? Did Christ remain sovereign while Israel thwarted what Christ wanted?

Simply, yes. I answer in the affirmative because I make a distinction between God's decretive will and His preceptive will. Deut 29:29

RB

 

[webdog]

...but both fall under His sovereign will, which is what I was trying to convey to TomMann...

 

[ReformedBaptist]

...but both fall under His sovereign will, which is what I was trying to convey to TomMann...

God's decree is different from speaking of His preceptive will. All things fall under God's decree, or sovereign will, or secret will. ALL THINGS. This includes good and evil events, sinful acts of men, "chance" occurances, details of our lives, affairs of nations, final destruction of the wicked, et.

God may decree something, but it be against His preceptive will. Biblical examples are Joseph, the murder of Jesus, King David numbering Israel, et.

Edited in: Dr. Waldron uses the example of the blueprint and the reality. God's decree, for example, is not salvation itself. It is the plan.

RB

 

[webdog]

Well, personally I don't see God's decretive will equalling His sovereign will, but God's sovereignty encompassing God's decretive / declarative and permissive wills. Sovereignty isn't a will, but a status.

 

[JustChristian]

So are you saying they thwart the sovereign will of God?

Well, from the description of creation it's obvious that God wanted to created man with free will. Otherwise, how could Adam and Eve refuse to obey Him. Wasn't their rebellion against the sovereign will of God. Wasn't the wickedness of the entire world except Noah's family against the sovereign will of God. Scripture says that God grieved that He had ever created man. That doesn't indicate to me that things had gone as He wished.

 

[Lukasaurus]

Reformer is making up terms to support his own theology. It's like their "general" call and "effectual" call. The Bible makes no such distinction.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Reformer is making up terms to support his own theology. It's like their "general" call and "effectual" call. The Bible makes no such distinction.

It actually does make such a distinction. Have you considered that your own theology may be inhibiting you to recognize it?

RB

 

[Lukasaurus]

Really.. so the general call, the audible call for sinners to repent and trust Christ, is actually worthless, since it is only the effectual unheard call in the hearts of man that even allows them to respond to the general call?

Now, I will post quotes from calvinists when I get home and I have my "scholarly" references with me, but essentially, that is what you believe about irresistable grace right?

Man cannot respond to the gospel unless God regenerates their hearts and grants them faith and repentance. The audible "general" call to the lost does nothing but give God the basis by which to damn them, since they have heard the general call and rejected it.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Really.. so the general call, the audible call for sinners to repent and trust Christ, is actually worthless, since it is only the effectual unheard call in the hearts of man that even allows them to respond to the general call?

Now, I will post quotes from calvinists when I get home and I have my "scholarly" references with me, but essentially, that is what you believe about irresistable grace right?

Man cannot respond to the gospel unless God regenerates their hearts and grants them faith and repentance. The audible "general" call to the lost does nothing but give God the basis by which to damn them, since they have heard the general call and rejected it.

Have you considered that your own theology may be inhibiting you to recognize it?

That was my question to you. So I will take your reply as a no.

RB

 

[lbaker]

Are you one of God's elect lbaker? If so, why did God choose you? RB

Yes, but not as you would define it. I believe that I chose Him.

But, if I was really convinced that He would choose or not choose me regardless of what I believed or didn't believe, or did or didn't do, that would change my whole outlook and practice. My destiny would amount to a divine coin toss - whether I would be one of the lucky ones or not. So, as far as God was concerned my lifestyle wouldn't really matter to Him, regardless of what Paul said.

 

[lbaker]

No, but our election has influence on us.

Does that mean God forces a change in our lifestyle if we are elect?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes, but not as you would define it. I believe that I chose Him.

But, if I was really convinced that He would choose or not choose me regardless of what I believed or didn't believe, or did or didn't do, that would change my whole outlook and practice. My destiny would amount to a divine coin toss - whether I would be one of the lucky ones or not. So, as far as God was concerned my lifestyle wouldn't really matter to Him, regardless of what Paul said.

lbaker,

To the first part of your reply, election is not you choosing God, but Him choosing you. Our election in terms of choice is not different from God choosing Israel. I think if you look at the Scripture itself you will see that God is the one who chooses. Even the very tenses of the Greek make you passive, and not active, with regards to your election.

The second part of your reply I think is just a reaction and human reasoning. If you conform your thinking to the biblical doctrine of election you would not come to the conclusion that your faith (believing or not believing) doesn't matter. It does matter a great deal! Nor would you reckon God's purposes as a divine coin toss, but the conscious action of an Almighty God consistent with His holy attributes.

Your lifesyle greatly matters to God, but He doesn't choose people conditioned upon their actions, good or evil. Look again at the verses of Scripture that positively teaching this subject. Look at Ephesians 1 and Romans 8 for example. In Ephesians 1 ask yourself the question: What is the text declaring is the reason for God's choice? Does God's choice render the actions of those chosen unimportant?

RB

 

[lbaker]

Your lifesyle greatly matters to God, but He doesn't choose people conditioned upon their actions, good or evil. Does God's choice render the actions of those chosen unimportant?

RB

Yes, it does, if He really does as you say.

Bottom line - if my actions don't affect my eternal destiny, then they don't really matter. Yes, I understand Paul is saying God doesn't give us a license to sin, etc., but, if I am truly saved or not saved based totally on God's choice regardless of whether I do good or do evil, who cares what Paul says?

Why take the risk of giving up the pleasures of the world and supporting a ministry for a lifetime only to find out in the end you were just fooling yourself and were never one of the elect? Why not just live with careless abandon and then when you die, either you go to hell knowing you at least lived as you pleased, or go to heaven having the best of both worlds?

 

[lbaker]

By the way, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, or just push your buttons here.

This is where logic takes me if my understanding of what Calvinism means by election is true, that God truly does choose some for heaven, and by implication, some for hell, regardless of whether they have a heart for Him or not.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes, it does, if He really does as you say.

Bottom line - if my actions don't affect my eternal destiny, then they don't really matter. Yes, I understand Paul is saying God doesn't give us a license to sin, etc., but, if I am truly saved or not saved based totally on God's choice regardless of whether I do good or do evil, who cares what Paul says?

Why take the risk of giving up the pleasures of the world and supporting a ministry for a lifetime only to find out in the end you were just fooling yourself and were never one of the elect? Why not just live with careless abandon and then when you die, either you go to hell knowing you at least lived as you pleased, or go to heaven having the best of both worlds?

Let's look at this biblically, and then rationally.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

There is no ambiguity here. God the Father has blessed us with all spiritual blessings. Who is/are the us? From verse 1 of Ephesians 1 it is obvious, "the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:" So it is believers.

here is verse 2a:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

I think if you honestly receive this text you have to conclude that God chose you before the world began. This solidifies that God is the one who chooses, not you. This verse alone does not answer why, but the text a few verses down does.

Verse 2b,
that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God has chosen us, and His purpose is to have a people who are holy and blameless. So yes, what you do matters.

Verse 3
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This verse clearly establishes what was motivating God's choice of us and His predestination of us to be His holy children: THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL.

Verse 4
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Obviously then the good pleasure of His will is to bring praise to the glory of His grace. God works all things after the counsel of His own will to His glory. It is HIS GRACE that has made us accepted in the beloved (Jesus), not we ourselves.

In your rationalization of God's secret will your confusing election as salvation. Election isn't salvation itself. Election is the blueprint as it were, the plan, but not the building itself. Whomever is elected, are also called, justified, sanctified, and glorified. God's buiding is complete and He is the Builder. He has all necessary materials and ability to build and will most certainly and unfailingly do so.

Your reasoning in the last statement either shows:

1. A futile attempt to defeat the biblical doctrine of election by laying a calumny that it is liscentious.

2. Revealing that your heart is unconverted and you stand in need to repentance and faith in Jesus.

Let a Christian do what it is he wants to do. He will be tempted to do evil by remaining sin, but he cannot continue in sin because the Spirit of God is in him. Let a false professor do what he wants to do, and he will run headlong into sin and not look back.

Shall we continue is sin that grace may abound? You know the answer to this. The very grace of God that saves us teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. If your personal rationale is that if grace is really grace, then I am going to live a life of decadance, sin, and depraved lust, then the Scripture testifies to you that the true grace of God has never touched your soul.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

By the way, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, or just push your buttons here.

This is where logic takes me if my understanding of what Calvinism means by election is true, that God truly does choose some for heaven, and by implication, some for hell, regardless of whether they have a heart for Him or not.

But this is a false dilemma lbacker. God does elect some and not others. There are some mistakes evident by your statement here of Calvinsim.

1. God does not act in reprobation the same way He acts is election and predestination unto life.

2. No one who "has a heart for Him" are reprobate. If someone has a heart for God, meaning they love Jesus Christ, believe in Him, repented of their sins, et. then it is evident that this person has been born of Him. And if born again, then elect.

There is no such thing as a reprobate beating on the doors of heaven begging for salvation.

RB

 

[Amy.G]

here is verse 2a:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

I think if you honestly receive this text you have to conclude that God chose you before the world began. This solidifies that God is the one who chooses, not you. This verse alone does not answer why, but the text a few verses down does.

\RB

Yes He does choose us, but you are neglecting the why. The verse doesn't say "He hath chosen us". It says "He hath chosen us in Him".

He has chosen those who are in Christ. He has chosen believers. He doesn't choose those who do not believe.

The ones God chose from the foundation of the world were the ones who believe in Christ.

The biggest downfall of Calvinism is that you have God saving or regenerating (being indwellt with the Holy Spirit) people before they have faith. That is not biblical. You must believe to be saved.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Yes He does choose us, but you are neglecting the why. The verse doesn't say "He hath chosen us". It says "He hath chosen us in Him".

He has chosen those who are in Christ. He has chosen believers. He doesn't choose those who do not believe.

The ones God chose from the foundation of the world were the ones who believe in Christ.

The biggest downfall of Calvinism is that you have God saving or regenerating (being indwellt with the Holy Spirit) people before they have faith. That is not biblical. You must believe to be saved.

The flaw is not with Calvinism Amy, its with an understanding that election IS salvation. This is not Calvinism. Election is the blueprint, to use an example, but the actual accomplishing of the building is salvation. So, your reply seems to be confusing God's plan with His bringing about His plan in time and history.

God the Father choosing for Himself a people in Christ is perfectly consistent with Calvinism. It is not different from what Jesus said about the Father giving Him a people. This people are not a faceless, numberless mass. This is election is particular and individual.

And as you said, He chose some (believers) and not others (unbelievers). This is the doctrine of election of reprobation.

RB

 

[MB]

Hi Amy;

Yes He does choose us, but you are neglecting the why. The verse doesn't say "He hath chosen us". It says "He hath chosen us in Him".

He has chosen those who are in Christ. He has chosen believers. He doesn't choose those who do not believe.

The ones God chose from the foundation of the world were the ones who believe in Christ.

The biggest downfall of Calvinism is that you have God saving or regenerating (being indwellt with the Holy Spirit) people before they have faith. That is not biblical. You must believe to be saved.

You've got it right here. Those who believe are chosen. This is election to Salvation. There are other elections as well, such as His dying for the whole world. He chose to die for the whole world so that anyone could be saved who believed in Him.
MB