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Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

This is not difficult to figure out. When did Jesus first say, No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father"?

The answer? Verse 44;

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Did Jesus say here, "No man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father"? NO, he said no man can come unless he is drawn. Jesus rephrased it in vs. 65.

So why did Jesus rephrase vs. 44? Why did he change it from "no man can come unless drawn of my Father" to "no man can come unless it were given unto him of my Father".

The answer is vs. 45. Verse 45 tells us both what was given, and what caused those men in vs. 44 to be drawn.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

NOW we know how men are drawn, now we know what is given, and now we know why men come. Because they were TAUGHT by God the Father. They heard him and they learned from him. And this KNOWLEDGE is what drew them and caused them to come.

How then do men learn from the Father? By the word of God, by the scriptures. It is hearing the word of God that enables men believe in Jesus, no man can believe what he does not know. This is exactly what Paul implies in Romans 10:14 and many other scriptures.

This is what Paul taught Timothy.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Paul said of Timothy that from a child he had KNOWN the holy scriptures, which were ABLE (enabling) to make him WISE (knowledge) unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

You see, all the word of God is consistent and agrees. It is hearing the word of God that teaches men and enables them to believe on Jesus. It is the word of God and hearing the gospel that draws men to Christ.

Men are not zapped to believe in Jesus, they are TAUGHT.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Now, I thought we were talking about the 1689 CoF. No?

 

I agree God neither ordained nor commanded, however God did:

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20 YLT

Vanity - what is devoid of truth and appropriateness
perverseness, depravity
frailty, want of vigour

Why was the creation, created as it was? --- For the hope to come? in hope

Hope of what/who. The faith to come. The resurrected Jesus of Nazareth.

Maybe a new creation under a new covenant wherein God will be all in all, in Christ.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Hebrews 8:10-12

There is nothing of the man in this covenant. The I there is I, God. No where in this covenant do the people say, "All that the Lord has said we will do."

God does it all.

 

There is no "if" to consider here. We have the scriptures, and the God they describe is nothing like the god described in the 1689 CoF, and I thank God for that!!

Many millions of people have been turned off to the true God because of Calvinism.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin09.html

Like this fellow says, to the Calvinist who has convinced himself he is one of the fortunate elect, the Calvinist God seems pretty great. But to everyone else he is a horrible monster.

And I have read of numerous Calvinists themselves who said they were at first utterly repulsed by the Calvinist God.

[snipped]

 

Why serve an imaginary God?
God himself states that He cannot be comprehended. His thoughts are beyond our thoughts. A finite man cannot understand an infinite God.

And yet this confession is arrogant enough to say "I understand," "I know."
It then proceeds to list the "decrees" of God which God Himself never told these uninspired writers. How do they presume to know the mind of God--the decrees of God? This is the height of arrogance.

Let's look at an example:
We all remember when the WTC was bombed.
God knew it would happen. Therefore it was "decreed by God."
The Muslim says the same thing. It happened. Que sera sera. Therefore it was Allah's will. This is their doctrine of fatalism, essential to their faith.
RE: the WTC, they rejoiced while America mourned.

[genuinely offensive slur removed by Administration]

 

Whether you like calvinism or not that was the question of the op. You have worked to ignore the op and just do your own thing.

 

I do not believe many do. Winman is not representative of any large group. He is pretty much out there alone.

 

Sure I did. I do not believe that God cannot be accurately described on a piece of paper by uninspired men. That is not the God I know. Therefore I would not worship Him.

I didn't say there was. God knew it would happen "before the foundation of the world." Correct? Therefore it was decreed. Hence fatalism.

 

You are asking a hypothetical here. You (and Iconoclast) are asking that if the true God was exactly as described in the 1689 CoF would I worship him?

And I think I would answer NO, because he would be a terrible and horrible God.

The God that the 1689 CoF describes is a monster. He chooses to damn billions of people before they are born, not because of anything good or evil they have done, but simply because it pleases him and glorifies him to destroy these people. That is a monster.

Now, Icon will argue these persons perish because of their sin. NO THEY DON'T. Their fate was decided before they were born, and not because of any conditions in the man himself. That is why it is called UNCONDITIONAL Election.

In Calvinism, sin is not the real reason men go to hell, or else all men would go to hell. No, ELECTION is what determines who will go to heaven, and who will not. The elect are just as sinful as the non-elect, but God chose to save them and regenerate them, again for no reason except it pleased him and glorifies him.

It's pretty good to be elect, but if you are not elect things are hopeless. God hates you for no reason, he hated you before you were born or existed, and he had decreed he would create you for the purpose of frying you in hell forever because he enjoys it.

Wow, just wow.

 

Yes it is a hypothetical and no I am not asking. That is the premise of the op you decided to take part in.


So God must do it your way, is that right?

 

The 1689 CoF IS Calvinism.

 

In a sense, YES. All men have the law written on their hearts and conscience. Deep down all men know what is right and wrong, what is just, and unjust.

For example, almost NOBODY believes God sends babies who die to hell. Why? Because deep down inside, people know babies are not evil, they are not sinners, and they do not DESERVE to go to hell.

At the same time, they must deal with doctrine that teaches everyone is born a sinner. This is a real dilemma.

But no matter how hard you try to convince people that babies are wicked sinners who deserve to go to hell, you just can't convince them. Even most Calvinists balk when it comes to this. They make up all sorts of non Biblical ways for God to save them. He shows them special grace where they do not have to have faith in Jesus to be saved.

So, nearly EVERYBODY says God must be as they say, he MUST save babies.

But the REAL reason is because we all know in our heart that babies are not evil and do not deserve hell.

And men innately know it would be evil of God to purpose to damn billions of people to burn in hell forever simply because he enjoys it and it brings him glory. We would put a man in prison for killing people for pleasure in a heartbeat. Why would God be different?

Calvinism cannot be true because it violates and offends the God-given law written on the heart. A sane man cannot believe it.

 

And.........................

 

That is nothing but inflammatory language. It is not necessary.

 

Sorry, mind-reading is not one of my talents, you'll have to be a little more specific.

 

My thoughts exactly.