The Biblical Means for Salvation

[Iconoclast]

Oh, he saw it...and nailed the context involving it. You are the one that ripped it out of context.

Nice try webdog my friend, except he nailed nothing in that he jumps into the carnal behavior of some members in cornith in chapter3.....they were acting like men, carnal men..

1cor 2 stands by itself just fine a exactly teaches what I posted
they cannot receive it, cannot does not mean that they can

 

[Skandelon]

Nice try webdog my friend, except he nailed nothing in that he jumps into the carnal behavior of some members in cornith in chapter3.....they were acting like men, carnal men..

1cor 2 stands by itself just fine a exactly teaches what I posted
they cannot receive it, cannot does not mean that they can

Surely, you know that the chapters and verse numbers weren't there when he wrote the letter, right? The context is the same for both those sentences...which is that these carnal men (even if believers) can't understand the "deep things of God" (vs. 10) because they are things which only spiritually minded men can receive. Clearly, its not about understanding the Holy Spirit's work of revealing the gospel appeal to be reconciled, otherwise they wouldn't be "brethren" to begin with...

Additionally, even if we were to accept that these two verses (which are clearly in the same context) are somehow unrelated, this verse doesn't prove your case. Since the Gospel IS a work of the Holy Spirit, which reveals mysteries the natural (lost) man couldn't possibly know apart from the Gospel truth, this verse could simply be revealing the need for such means as the Holy Spirit wrought Gospel truth.

Let me explain it this way, because I know it is hard to understand a new perspective on a verse you've only viewed from one vantage point. Suppose you know a secret that is just a mystery to everyone else in the world, but you recently wrote a book fully revealing and explaining the complexities of that secret. You're book had been read by some but not all, and many still remained in ignorance of this secret that only you hold. Now, if I read your book and now understood the mystery that you revealed through those means I might say to a group of ignorant people, "You cannot understand this mystery unless Iconoclast reveals it to you." Does that mean these people can't read your book and gain understanding? Of course not, it simply means that without YOUR HELP (though speaking to you or reading your book, whatever means you want) they cannot understand the mystery. The key is to give credit to you for the book you produced, in the same way we give credit to the Holy Spirit for the gospel he produced. Make sense? I'm not asking you to agree. Just help me know you get it.

 

[glfredrick]

There's a Christ-like behavior model to follow

I don't recall doing the same to you when you told me how busy your schedule was and you would not have the time to engage me on a topic...and then turned right around and posted a VERY wordy 10 paragraph post coupled with dozens of other posts shortly thereafter. Not sure how that exactly garners trust. I guess you hold to "do as I say, not as I do".

I returned to each of those threads, and I would have responded -- I am not what you are pinning me to be -- but the ugly nature of each caused them to be closed before I could get back. Such is life around here, but we always pick up where we left off in the next thread.

I'd hope that you can understand that some threads require a bit of work before making rash posts, and others can be written top of mind...

Nah, I doubt that you'd get that. :BangHead:

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Again you beg the question by equating "true" with "inerrant" (without any error) and on the other thread you acknowledge there are insignificant errors. So, which is it?

Inerrant (without any error) or insigificerrant (without any significant error)? If your going to use a man-made term anyway, might as well use one that better represents your view.

Inspired by God, Inerrantand Infallible, that is the bible. As you were shown before the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy delivers an entire document worth of explaination.

 

[Skandelon]

OB,
As requested, I'll respond to this topic on the thread about this topic...

 

[webdog]

I returned to each of those threads, and I would have responded -- I am not what you are pinning me to be -- but the ugly nature of each caused them to be closed before I could get back. Such is life around here, but we always pick up where we left off in the next thread.

I'd hope that you can understand that some threads require a bit of work before making rash posts, and others can be written top of mind...

Nah, I doubt that you'd get that. :BangHead:

Are you saying I should give you the benefit of the doubt?

... because I do not recall it being like that at all.

 

[webdog]

Nice try webdog my friend, except he nailed nothing in that he jumps into the carnal behavior of some members in cornith in chapter3.....they were acting like men, carnal men..

1cor 2 stands by itself just fine a exactly teaches what I posted
they cannot receive it, cannot does not mean that they can

To use that text the way you are trying to use it, you will have to prove that the Gospel is a "deeper thing" of God (what Paul was speaking of in that text)

 

[Aaron]

I'm sorry I hurt you fredrick. I thought secretly quoting Calvin and letting you all debate his words was a good way to reveal the lack of objectivity in dealing with each other and a bit humorous, not deceptive, but I can see how one might take it that way. I apologize if it was over the line.

Posting another's words as if they're your own is at best disingenuous. It doesn't speak well of your character.

However, you'll notice that I didn't argue with a single point "you" had made. My impression was that it was more eloquent than I'm used to seeing from you, and, quite frankly, dead on. I had a glimmer of hope that you were on the verge of seeing the error of your ways, and thought you simply retreated to eloquent statements of spiritual platitudes to avoid the gnawing question of where faith comes from.

Anyway, I've continued the thread, and now you have a chance to answer the question.

 

[Skandelon]

Posting another's words as if they're your own is at best disingenuous. It doesn't speak well of your character.

And not objectively responding to other believers posts, but blindly attacking just about anything they say without even attempting to understand their intent or recognize the common truth is equally revealing of one's character.

Secondly, I didn't post them with the intent to claim them as my own, so by Luke's and your standard regarding "motive" this would not be disingenuous. My motive was to reveal the lack of objectivity...good motive = no sin. Hey, I like this standard. Thank for the excuse guys!

However, you'll notice that I didn't argue with a single point "you" had made. My impression was that it was more eloquent than I'm used to seeing from you, and, quite frankly, dead on. I had a glimmer of hope that you were on the verge of seeing the error of your ways, and thought you simply retreated to eloquent statements of spiritual platitudes to avoid the gnawing question of where faith comes from.

Yeah, Aaron you saw right through me. Good job! Way to go. Oh, wait, that is giving you glory when clearly it was God who gave you the ability to see through my deception...I mean my good motive with poorly chosen means... Way to go God/Aaron.

Anyway, I've continued the thread, and now you have a chance to answer the question.

Yippeee, I can't wait! :type:

 

[Iconoclast]

To use that text the way you are trying to use it, you will have to prove that the Gospel is a "deeper thing" of God (what Paul was speaking of in that text)

If I go through the chapter and show it is so.....would you and scandelon repent of these new age re-inventing of the texts?
I think just a careful reading eliminates these questions and objections.

If you follow the teaching he is contrasting the believer and the unbeliever

How can you even question the verse?

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit

Does the unsaved person have the Holy Spirit? It clearly is speaking to believers here and explaining why God has given them the Spirit to be able to understand the deep things of God,ie the scriptures. as in verse 12 as he explains;

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

clearly believers in view.as in verse 13,leading to the contrast in verse14
BUT THE NATURAL MAN

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

He cannot know them...He cannot because He is not born again,He cannot because he only has the spirit of a man,He does not have the Holy Spirit.
I really do not understand your confusion here,unless God is not enabling you to see this ,because in post after post you are resisting His truth.
The discussion several verses on in ch3 is about professed believers who are acting as the unsaved......flesh like [and no, there is no carnal christian]

Re read the whole passage and follow the argument being made. This should not even come up for discussion.

Anything other than this would be to twist and pervert scripture delibrately.

 

[Skandelon]

I did respond to this verse Iconoclast, back on post 22 but you missed that one I guess?

Plus, Arminians historically don't deny that God indeed does need to give spiritual discernment about otherwise mysterious spiritual matters for those not yet indwelled by the spirit, so I'm not sure how you think this verse is uniquely supporting your claims.

We both believe God must enable men to come to him through the appointed means, we just disagree as to the effectual nature and purposes of those means. This verse is not supporting your cause.

 

[Winman]

Re read the whole passage and follow the argument being made. This should not even come up for discussion.

You should follow your own advice. Paul continues into the next chapter.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

As Webdog and Van pointed out, these believers were very immature. They were babes in understanding. Paul compared them in understanding to carnal natural men.

And that is the whole point, this argues that the natural man can understand some simple basics of God's word. They can understand they are sinners, they can understand Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins and receive him as Savior.

It is the "deeper things of God" that the carnal, natural man cannot understand. But the gospel is simple and can be understood by a child.

Matt 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

It does not take great understanding to trust in Jesus. Jesus said little children can believe in him.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The gospel is simple, even little children can understand it and believe. And this is how Paul is speaking of these believers, they have understood and trusted Christ, they are saved, but they have not matured since, they cannot understand the deeper things.

Notice also that Paul said it is the holy scriptures which are "able" to make a person wise unto salvation. Does he say that it is necessary to be supernaturally regenerated to make them wise unto salvation? NO.

So, you misuse 1 Cor 2:14. Take it in context of what Paul is saying overall and it does not say that the natural man cannot know and understand the simple gospel.

 

[Skandelon]

Great verse on the subject Winman!

2 Tim 3:15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures. They have the power to give you wisdom so that you can be saved through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ron Wood]

Typical ad hominem troll behavior which shows that you either cannot deal with the OP, or it is easier to divert attention to the person and not the topic.

So you accuse me of ad hominem and back it up with ad hominem? Call me a troll if you like, it matters nothing to me. I make arguments when arguments are needed and when the obvious cries to be pointed out I do that as well. But like any good warrior I choose my battles. You can add the fact that he made my point. He destroyed his credibility not I.

But I will take this opportunity to give an observation about this place. I find a great many well educated folks on here, more than most boards I have visited, but what I see is a bunch of educated fellows who are doing nothing but putting the fact that they are educated on display. I am not impressed.

 

[Ron Wood]

Typical ad hominem troll behavior which shows that you either cannot deal with the OP, or it is easier to divert attention to the person and not the topic.

Show me a post that was directed at me that I haven't responded to. I have posted and you folks have ignored it and I was forced to assume that it was either overlooked or couldn't be answered. But if I have not answered anyone who posted in direct response to me I missed it I didn't ignore it. As I said earlier you may call me a troll but I simply don't have the free time to spend on here that many of you seem to have. That and the fact that I am old enough to know when not to speak.

 

[convicted1]

You should follow your own advice. Paul continues into the next chapter.

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

As Webdog and Van pointed out, these believers were very immature. They were babes in understanding. Paul compared them in understanding to carnal natural men.

And that is the whole point, this argues that the natural man can understand some simple basics of God's word. They can understand they are sinners, they can understand Jesus is the Son of God who died for their sins and receive him as Savior.

It is the "deeper things of God" that the carnal, natural man cannot understand. But the gospel is simple and can be understood by a child.

Matt 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

It does not take great understanding to trust in Jesus. Jesus said little children can believe in him.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The gospel is simple, even little children can understand it and believe. And this is how Paul is speaking of these believers, they have understood and trusted Christ, they are saved, but they have not matured since, they cannot understand the deeper things.

Notice also that Paul said it is the holy scriptures which are "able" to make a person wise unto salvation. Does he say that it is necessary to be supernaturally regenerated to make them wise unto salvation? NO.

So, you misuse 1 Cor 2:14. Take it in context of what Paul is saying overall and it does not say that the natural man cannot know and understand the simple gospel.

True story, to back this post up. I went to church one sunday, probably 10+ years before God saved my dead soul. I had read many times about Satan telling Jesus to turn the stones into bread, but never knew what that really meant. A preacher was preaching on this that day, when all of a sudden, it came to me, that if Jesus made the stones into bread, it would tempt Him to eat. God had showed me this, and I went on living my sinful life for years. So, yes, He does reveal things to "active" sinners(ones who enjoy their sinful life and do not want to come to Him). He was drawing me at this time, but I chose not to turn my life completely over to Him at this time, either. He reveals things to sinners that they may come to Him, when He draws them.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[webdog]

So you accuse me of ad hominem and back it up with ad hominem?

Your post was a classic troll post. Deal with it.

I make arguments when arguments are needed and when the obvious cries to be pointed out I do that as well. But like any good warrior I choose my battles. You can add the fact that he made my point. He destroyed his credibility not I.

...and like I pointed out already, your very first interaction on this thread was nothing but vitriolic and did not address the argument at all. By doing this you really have no business calling out anyone's credibility on anything.

But I will take this opportunity to give an observation about this place. I find a great many well educated folks on here, more than most boards I have visited, but what I see is a bunch of educated fellows who are doing nothing but putting the fact that they are educated on display. I am not impressed.

This is great, because the vast majority of those who brag about their education are reformed. Just look at who participates in the seminary forum. Us non-calvinists are the ones often wrongly accused of being too unintelligent to grasp your theology.

Show me a post that was directed at me that I haven't responded to.

Strawman. Your reading comprehension skills are quite lacking. Read what I said, not what you want to hear.

 

[MB]

You ask this:

Yes, the calvinist we call the apostle Paul clearly shows that the T in calvinism means that all natural men cannot receive or welcome the things of God.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

]

here very clearly God must regenerate a natural man and convert him into a Spiritual man before he will welcome the things of God....neither can he know them.[/QUOTE]


I'm amazed at what you see here in 1st Cor 2... Verse 9 is not talking about understanding anything needed for Salvation. In fact I don't think anyone knows with out a doubt all of what God has instore for all of us in the next life. The natural man certainly doesn't know but this has nothing to do with the gospel. There is no mystery to the gospel it isn't sealed up so men can't understand it. It is in language that even children can understand it. Certainly Gentiles understand it Paul said so.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
So either you are very wrong or you will explain this contradiction. We all know there are no contradictions in scripture.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

here very clearly God must regenerate a natural man and convert him into a Spiritual man before he will welcome the things of God....neither can he know them.

I'm amazed at what you see here in 1st Cor 2... Verse 9 is not talking about understanding anything needed for Salvation. In fact I don't think anyone knows with out a doubt all of what God has instore for all of us in the next life. The natural man certainly doesn't know but this has nothing to do with the gospel. There is no mystery to the gospel it isn't sealed up so men can't understand it. It is in language that even children can understand it. Certainly Gentiles understand it Paul said so.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
So either you are very wrong or you will explain this contradiction. We all know there are no contradictions in scripture.
MB[/QUOTE]

Hello MB,
First I agree with you that scripture never contradicts itself.Are you aware that Paul in verse2: 9 is going back to a wonderful longing and promise given through Isaiah in chapter 64.....longing for God to rend the heavens and come down and establish His kingdom,among sinful men? Here is the chapter:
[QUOTE
Isaiah 64
1Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

2As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!

3When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

4For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 5Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand. 9Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

10Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

11Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.

12Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?


][/QUOTE]

Notice when Isaiah writes it before the cross in verse 4 it says those who wait for thee.....Paul in Corinthians 9 says those who love Him.

In vs 6+7 the depraved nature of man ,in this case in particular apostate Israel and the remnant are addressed, then in verse 8 The calvinist Isaiah appeals to God as the sovereign potter to change the people because of His covenant with them. He is asking that God restores those who look for His mercy.

Mb if you notice Paul is speaking exactly of the gospel in the first 8 verses.
He speaks of the cross, saving faith,

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Are you sure that you think he is not speaking of the gospel?

Acts 28 that you cite is a great verse,in that God had ordained for the gospel to go world wide. God has His children all around the world.They are the sheep who will hear the shepherds voice,jn 10. No contradiction , but rather a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant; Remember MB....it is not that the gospel is too difficult to understand....men do not want to understand it...because the natural man cannot, the carnal mind cannot.......MB without being born from above they never will repent and believe!

8Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

I hope this is helpful for you. I know this only scratches the surface as there is much more here.
MB ...From what I can tell this is the mainstream understanding that the believing church has had until the recent novel interpretations came in to obscure the issue. This is a good question and very profitable to study out.
If I could I would encourage all to attempt to see how others have understood these truths in times past.
We are seeing a general lack of study in our day, at least here in the USA churches whose members are fat and happy and blend in with the world ,rather than take a stand for God. Thank you for your response and good question.:thumbs: