The Blood and It’s Application

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The blood of Christ is the most precious thing we could discuss as believers. It is the blood of Christ that cleanseth us from all sin.

My question to the list is as follows. Does sin, in order to be forgiven, have to have the blood applied, and is it 'once applied forever applied?'

Some, such as DHK and Ed, present the theory that all sins have been paid for in full at the cross. Can sins be paid for without the blood being applied 'once for all?' Has the blood been applied to all the sins of the entire world?

Self introspection: Are my ideas concerning the atonement and the payment made by Christ by the shedding of His Precious blood consistent with my beliefs as to whether or not the blood of Christ, once shed, can be withdrawn subsequent to having been applied on behalf of the sins of the entire world? If the blood and it's work cannot be withdrawn, could my view of the nature of the atonement possibly be in need of adjustment or change?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Does sin, in order to be forgiven, have to have the blood applied, and is it 'once applied forever applied?'

Once saved, we are 'under the blood'. Otherwise, Jesus would have to die again or we would have to go back to sacrificing animals.

The blood is good for ALL time or NO time.

The blood is good for ALL sins or NO sins.

Jesus paid the price and said, "It is finished!"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: Does sin, in order to be forgiven, have to have the blood applied, and is it 'once applied forever applied?'

I AM Blessed 19: Once saved, we are 'under the blood'. Otherwise, Jesus would have to die again or we would have to go back to sacrificing animals.

The blood is good for ALL time or NO time.

The blood is good for ALL sins or NO sins.

Jesus paid the price and said, "It is finished!"

HP: You seem to indicate that the blood is applied ‘once we are saved.’ Are you saying that sins were not forgiven when His blood was spilt, nor was it 'finished', but rather it is applied an finished when we believe? I would have thought that once something was paid for in full, and ‘finished’ as you say, that from that time forward, just as the literal payment theory indicates, the blood would have had to have been applied. Is it not ‘finished’ until we believe? Would that not make the ‘finished part’ conditional until we, two thousand years later, happen to choose to believe?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Jesus' part is finished, but we still have to accept the gift He gave us and the price He paid for us.

When I buy a gift for someone, it is paid for and finished. But the recipient has the option of picking it up or leaving it where it is.

It does no good to a person who will not accept it...

Jesus said 'whosoever'. He is waiting for us to accept His gift.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I Am Blessed 19: Jesus' part is finished, but we still have to accept the gift He gave us and the price He paid for us.

When I buy a gift for someone, it is paid for and finished. But the recipient has the option of picking it up or leaving it where it is.

It does no good to a person who will not accept it...

Jesus said 'whosoever'. He is waiting for us to accept His gift.

HP: Do not take what I am about to ask as an indicator of what I believe. I am just asking questions for now.

If I am understanding you right, salvation depends on man’s will. If it cannot be accomplished until we ‘believe,' am I understanding you right in that in the end it is, in reality, man’s will that is the determining factor in salvation? Was salvation accomplished when Christ cried “It is Finished!” or is it really only finished when we come along and accept the gift?

 

[billwald]

No one else is bothered by this mystical/magical reference to blood? Did Jesus' blood contain some chemical or biological component that is not common to human blood? If so, did Jesus have human blood? If we had a sample of his DNA . . . .

This "blood" stuff is the origin of "relics" superstition, yes?

>When I buy a gift for someone, it is paid for and finished. But the recipient has the option of picking it up or leaving it where it is.

Except in the case of you paying off his electric bill or car loan. The public utility or bank doesn't ask for ID when you pay your bills.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is the picture I Am Blessed 19 is painting. At the cross the blood of Christ is placed in as many boxes as there have been or will be people. The forgiveness for sin is in these boxes with every ones name on them. All one has to do is to accept their box to be saved.

The first ( but not only) major obstacle that comes to mind, is that it makes the damning sin one thing and one thing alone, i.e., the rejection of their box, a box that they may not ever have the opportunity to know that there was ever such a box, nor ever hear the instructions of what to do with their box once they know it exists. Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

The resounding answer is that they cannot come to Christ until they have heard the message. The idea some on this list have stated, that all have or will hear the gospel message, is an unfounded theory that is not set forth in Scripture and is not that which the testimony of thousands of missionaries have testified to, as they have brought, for the first time, the message of hope to a lost and dying world.

It is a false notion to believe that the damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ. Certainly one will be damned that does reject that message, and it will certainly seal ones fate, but the cause of ones sinful malady is NOT the rejection of the cure, but rather is a direct result of willing disobedience to known commandments of God; commandments understood by way of intuitive light or objective training.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bill Wald: No one else is bothered by this mystical/magical reference to blood?

HP: I am not following you here. Who has presented the blood of Christ in any such ‘mystical/magical’ fashion? Is was real blood, the precious Blood of Christ that was spilt for you and for me. 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and 'the blood of Jesus Christ' his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

In further response to the ideas presented by I Am Blessed 19, does God go around laden with gifts, hoping that some will accept, wondering what He is going to do with the gift He desired for others to receive, gifts that were enacted at GREAT PERSONAL EXPENSE, but in the end have absolutely no ability to complete the transaction for which they were designed, developed, and orchestrated?

Can you start to grasp the waste such a theory might imbibe? If God in His Omniscience knew that some, or even most, would not accept the gift, would He in wisdom expend the suffering and personal cost when He knew full well the absolute futility of suffering for those that He in His Omniscience knew full well would not accept it?

The idea of a literal payment for specific sins is simply beyond the scope of reason, logic, and Scripture.

 

[steaver]

Question for you HP.

When the angel of death went through Egypt, did the angel look inside the houses to see if anyone was sinning or did the angel just look for the blood?

Your theology is backwards. It makes sin cancel out the blood when it is the blood which cancels out the sin.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: When the angel of death went through Egypt, did the angel look inside the houses to see if anyone was sinning or did the angel just look for the blood?

Your theology is backwards. It makes sin cancel out the blood when it is the blood which cancels out the sin.

HP: Do you enjoy misrepresenting others? Where have I ever stated or implied, or my theology ever represented the notion, that the blood does not cancel out sin? That is pure misrepresentation of the truth.

Nothing can cancel out what the blood has covered, but what the blood does not do is to cancel out future acts of disobedience that one has not repented for. There is no such thing as a pardon for sins without the conditions of forgiveness being met. It is pure presumption to believe that whatever I do in the future is Hs already forgiven by God if at anytime in the past one has exercised faith in Christ. Scripture does not support any such notion. The blood over the door post did not suffice for disobedience in the future: case in point those that could not enter into the promised land because of disbelief AFTER the blood was applied.

 

[steaver]

HP: Do you enjoy misrepresenting others? Where have I ever stated or implied, or my theology ever represented the notion, that the blood does not cancel out sin? That is pure misrepresentation of the truth.

If I have misrepresented you, then what is your answer....If I sin after I have recieved the atonement of the blood of Christ through faith, does this "afterwards" sin cancel out the blood of Christ and send me to hell?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: If I sin after I have recieved the atonement of the blood of Christ through faith, does this "afterwards" sin cancel out the blood of Christ and send me to hell?

HP: Scripture plainly teaches that possibility. The blood does not cover future acts of disobedience. What the blood does cover are ‘sins that are past’ and one has repented and turned away from. For those sins and those only has God canceled out. For those sins that are past and have been forgiven, forgiveness remains and will remain canceled out. New sin, sin committed subsequent to salvation, that one has not repented of, is a different matter.

What does Scripture plainly inform us? Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Eze 18:30 ¶ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

We as believers are warned over and over to remain faithful until the end. We are warned not to depart from the faith with an evil heart of disbelief. Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence STEDFAST UNTO THE END;
15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Remember the blood that was once over their doorposts? Beware lest any of us follow their evil example.

 

[steaver]

HP: Scripture plainly teaches that possibility. The blood does not cover future acts of disobedience.

Well brother, if you are right we all go to hell. Unless you have been sinless since your blood washing.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

it makes the damning sin one thing and one thing alone, i.e., the rejection of their box

Exactly! I have to disagree with the statement you made that rejecting Jesus Christ will not send you to hell when, in fact, it is the only sin that will send you to hell...

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Bold and underline is mine.)

If we refuse to accept the 'gift' that God gave us, we will go to hell. And if there had been only one person alive, Jesus would have died for that one person just as He died for you and me and all the other "whosoever's".

I don't have a 'hope so' salvation. I have a 'know so' salvation that I cannot lose. Not as long as John 1:9 is still in the Bible.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: it makes the damning sin one thing and one thing alone, i.e., the rejection of their box

IAB19: Exactly! I have to disagree with the statement you made that rejecting Jesus Christ will not send you to hell when, in fact, it is the only sin that will send you to hell...

HP: How about a little fairness in saying what I said? I stated that the damning sin is not the 'one thing and one thing alone,' i.e., the rejection of Jesus Christ. The rejection of Jesus Christ seals our fate IF we have the opportunity to hear the gospel and reject it. Many will be in hell that have not heard the gospel. They have not rejected Jesus Christ, but they have rejected what light their conscience has been afforded to them by God. For this they stand condemned.

IAB19:John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(Bold and underline is mine.)

HP: Have you ever noticed the words ‘should not?’ Notice it does not say ‘will not’ but ‘should not.’

IAB19: If we refuse to accept the 'gift' that God gave us, we will go to hell. And if there had been only one person alive, Jesus would have died for that one person just as He died for you and me and all the other "whosoever's".

HP: I could not agree with you more on these two points. Now back to my real questions to you that you have not answered. If I am understanding you right, salvation depends on man’s will. If it cannot be accomplished until we ‘believe,' am I understanding you right in that in the end it is, in reality, man’s will that is the determining factor in salvation? Was salvation accomplished when Christ cried “It is Finished!” or is it really only finished when we come along and accept the gift?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I'm sorry. I thought I had answered that.

Jesus' part is finished...ours is not.

God gave man a free will so it is our choice whether to reject his Son or accept Him.

We HAVE to accept Jesus' work on the Cross or we will go to hell.

God could have made man so he could not rebel against Him. He did not do that. He left the choice up to us whether to love Him and his Son's sacrifice for us.

If all men were going to heaven or hell regardless of what we do...why did Jesus die? Yes. We have to make a choice, and once that choice is made, it is made forever.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

IAB19: I'm sorry. I thought I had answered that.

Jesus' part is finished...ours is not.

God gave man a free will so it is our choice whether to reject his Son or accept Him.

We HAVE to accept Jesus' work on the Cross or we will go to hell.

God could have made man so he could not rebel against Him. He did not do that. He left the choice up to us whether to love Him and his Son's sacrifice for us.

If all men were going to heaven or hell regardless of what we do...why did Jesus die? Yes. We have to make a choice, and once that choice is made, it is made forever.

HP: I agree wholeheartedly with what you state here. :thumbs: I would just say that regardless if we ever hear or have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, we have a free will that either acts in accordance to or in opposition of the intuitive light God grants in some measure to every man. God will judge every one as to whether or not they lived in consistency to that Divine revelation. Failure to have lived in accordance to that light will be the downfall of the heathen who have not heard the gospel, not the rejection of a cure they never had the opportunity to hear.

 

[billwald]

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and 'the blood of Jesus Christ' his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Then "blood" is a figure of speech that represents something else?

 

[Allan]

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and 'the blood of Jesus Christ' his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Then "blood" is a figure of speech that represents something else?

NO. Scripture is specific in that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins".

The sacrifices were pictures of the one who would shed His own blood. The shedding of the animals blood could not cleanse us FROM sin but the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin.