adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The one Shepherd's one fold consists of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who lose their ethnic distinction in Him.
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The Body of Christ
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
- Start date
Dr. Walter
New Member
The one Shepherd's one fold consists of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians who lose their ethnic distinction in Him.
They are "sheep" BEFORE they are brought into that fold but your interpretation demands they are not sheep until they are brought into this fold. Take the language as it is given - don't do mental gynastics here because this is not a context of God's purpose of salvation. They are called "sheep" before they are brought into the fold. Likewise, people are saved BEFORE they can be brought into the church at Jerusalem (Acts 2;41). "I HAVE sheep"
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Jesus knew in advance that there were among the Gentiles people who would become hearers, believers, and followers or sheep, so He referred to them as sheep in advance (Jn. 10:16). He did not say they were already hearers, believers, or followers, or already sheep
Many sheep, many shepherds, many assemblies, One Great Shepherd who is the head of all shepherds, each one being the head of their respective assembly.Jesus knew in advance that there were among the Gentiles people who would become hearers, believers, and followers or sheep, so He referred to them as sheep in advance (Jn. 10:16). He did not say they were already hearers, believers, or followers, or already sheep
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
One fold and one Shepherd (Jn. 10:16).
Dr. Walter
New Member
One fold and one Shepherd (Jn. 10:16).
Like I said, you act like a parrot, you just repeat the same error without any contextual support.
One church at Jerusalem with one Cheif Shepherd at Jerusalem. One church at Antioch with one Cheif Shepherd at Antioch. One "flock" at Ephesus (Acts 20:29) and one Cheif Shepherd at Ephesus.
When Paul wrote "one body" to the Church at Ephesus, those reading this epistle at Ephesus or at Corinth or any individual church that later would read this letter would understand there is one body in NUMBER and that is the ONE the reader was a member of and one body in KIND and that is the kind that all other readers outside of Ephesus were members of - "the churches of God"
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Jesus said, "There shall be ONE fold and ONE Shepherd." He did not say, "There shall be MORE THAN ONE fold and MORE THAN ONE Shepherd." I believe what He said.
Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.Jesus said, "There shall be ONE fold and ONE Shepherd." He did not say, "There shall be MORE THAN ONE fold and MORE THAN ONE Shepherd." I believe what He said.
They ordained shepherds in every fold in the towns and cities in which they had been. There are many shepherds and many folds. The many shepherds are all subject to the one Great Shepherd.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Jesus said, "There shall be ONE fold and ONE Shepherd." He did not say, "There shall be MORE THAN ONE fold and MORE THAN ONE Shepherd." I believe what He said.
You have already admitted that the nature of the Shepherd is different then the nature of the fold and so they are not ONE in the same sense. The shepherd is omniscient and omnipresent but the fold is not omniscient or omnipresent so you cannot say they are ONE in the same sense. You admit to those differences and we believe their are many other differences as well that provide a basis to say that Christ is again talking about his fold in the institutional sense and His relationship to it in that same sense.
Absolute evidence for this interpretation is Acts 20:29 where even you cannot deny that "the flock" in this verse applies to the particular ONE in number as well as ONE in kind of church at Ephesus.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Can "grevious wolves ENTER" in among a fold that is defined necessarily as ONLY THE SAVED??? It does not say saved person enter the flock but "grevious wolves enter" it.
This is the same "the flock" of verse 28 where those in Acts 11:17 are made the overseers by the Holy Spirit over this "the flock."
Your interpetation cannot possible meet all the contextual characteristics of Acts 20:17-31 but our position perfectly matches it in every concievable way.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Brother Mark,
All of the Christians in Ephesus were the one church of God and body of Christ as it was manifested in that city. These Christians fellowshipped with one another. Grievous wolves were able to enter into their midst in an effort to lead them into sin and error.
All of the Christians in Ephesus were the one church of God and body of Christ as it was manifested in that city. These Christians fellowshipped with one another. Grievous wolves were able to enter into their midst in an effort to lead them into sin and error.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Brother Mark,
All of the Christians in Ephesus were the one church of God and body of Christ as it was manifested in that city. These Christians fellowshipped with one another. Grievous wolves were able to enter into their midst in an effort to lead them into sin and error.
Your adding your own words to Scripture in order to support your own brand of heresy. Paul addresses "THE flock" not PART of the flock or not the MANIFESTATION of PART of the flock in Ephesus. All your heresies are due to ADDING and REDEFINING the scriptures to suit your heresies.
"the flock" in verse 28 is the same "the flock" in verse 29 and it is the KIND of flock that "grevious wolves enter" and that is the death knell of your doctrine - end of story.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The Christians in the city of Ephesus were the one flock of God in that locale.
Dr. Walter
New Member
The Christians in the city of Ephesus were the one flock of God in that locale.
Then they were "the body of Christ" in that locale as well as "the body" is simply another metaphor as "the flock" for "the church." So every New Testament Church is metaphorical "body" "flock" in their locale. FIND ME ANY PLURAL USE OF "FLOCK" FOR THE CHURCHES?????? So much for your argument against the term "body" being used in the plural. If "the flock" can be used for a local church then "the body" which is simply another metaphor for the church can be equally used for the local church. So much for your doctrine.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Yes, all the Christians in Ephesus were the church and body of Christ in that locale. Except geographically, these Christians were not separated from all other Christians in the world.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Yes, all the Christians in Ephesus were the church and body of Christ in that locale. Except geographically, these Christians were not separated from all other Christians in the world.
Wrong! They were "the body" and "The flock" and "the church" in that locale, as well as "a" church and "a" body and "a" flock in that locale as all these metaphors are LOCAL by nature and NEVER universal by nature as that is a complete abuse of the metaphor as the characteristics of UNIVERSAL or INVISIBLE are cannot be found in a literal "flock" or literal "body" and therefore such metaphors cannot represent such!!!
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Since all Christians are in union with Christ and in union with one another, it makes no sense to restrict the body of Christ to a local church made up of Christians and non-Christians. Christ is the Head of all Christians, and all Christians are His body.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
A family and a kingdom normally are localized entities, but the New Testament gives these terms newer, larger meanings. It does the same with the word church.
The word church (ekklesia) always means assembly and can never have a larger, universal meaning.A family and a kingdom normally are localized entities, but the New Testament gives these terms newer, larger meanings. It does the same with the word church.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Who says it cannot have a larger meaning? Word meaning is based upon word usage. The word "ekklesia" is used many times in the New Testament to refer to an entity larger than a local one. It may be true that this word had no larger meaning before New Testament times, but it took on a larger meaning during the days of Christ and His apostles. So did the words family and kingdom.
The word does not and did not have any larger meaning than the simple meaning of "assembly." That is a fact that many want to ignore.Who says it cannot have a larger meaning? Word meaning is based upon word usage. The word "ekklesia" is used many times in the New Testament to refer to an entity larger than a local one. It may be true that this word had no larger meaning before New Testament times, but it took on a larger meaning during the days of Christ and His apostles. So did the words family and kingdom.