The book of Job discussion

[Daniel Dunivan]

I don't care how many donkey's God provides, what about my dead children. Can you bring those back? The book of Job addresses the question of evil by saying that God is the one who gives and He is the one who takes away. He isn't dealing with prosperity theology, but with the existential problem of the existence of evil.

Most scholars see the thoughts in Job as developments against the Deuteronomistic theology (if you do good I will bless you, if you do evil I will curse you) you are preaching greatday. If that causes conflict with passages outside the book of Job, then so be it. Maybe a new concept of revelation and inspiration are in order rather than misinterpretation of the text in question.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[greatday]

Most scholars see the thoughts in Job as developments against the Deuteronomistic theology [/QB]

Obviously most scholars are idiots because God didn't create scholars to run the world and neither did he create the bible just so scholars could study it! God is very pragmatic and He told man to be prosperous.

The book of Job provides quite an insight into the character of God and how he dislikes proud and arrogant ones and goes out of the way to bring them down just like He did with king Nebuchadnezzar to whom He said In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.'

Job 40:7 "Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me:
40:8 "Would you indeed annul My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
40:9 Have you an arm like God?
Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
40:10 Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor,
and array yourself with glory and beauty.
40:11 Disperse the rage of your wrath;
Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.
40:12 Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low;
Tread down the wicked in their place.
40:13 Hide them in the dust together,
Bind their faces in hidden darkness.
40:14 Then I will also confess to you
That your own right hand can save you.

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

I would say in my experience, those who dismiss intelligent and honest interpretations of a text are usually the idiots, and who said scholars were running the world anyway (I wish).

Much of the pain and suffering that we see around us can be traced to people who are so wrapped up in prospering themselves while dismissing the power of evil as manifested in oppression, poverty, and disregard for life. If you want to talk about a pragmatic God against human pride, how can you reconcile these issues, which are by their very nature pragmatic and against human pride?

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[greatday]

Have Faith In God?

So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God. "For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. "Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them. Mark 11:22-24

Jesus answered and said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Luke 5:31

Faith in God is not something that is to be reserved for church on a Sunday morning but is to be used 24 hours a day seven days a week when there is a need or a problem. God is always available for those in need and His word is unchanging:

Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me." Psalm 50:15

He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. Psalm 91:15

Faith in God brings practical results just like when men of a city where the water was bad and the ground barren asked Elisha, a true man of God, to do something about it all:

Then the men of the city said to Elisha, "Please notice, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord sees; but the water is bad, and the ground barren." And he said, "Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it." So they brought it to him. Then he went out to the source of the water, and cast in the salt there, and said, "Thus says the LORD: 'I have healed this water; from it there shall be no more death or barrenness.' " So the water remains healed to this day, according to the word of Elisha which he spoke. 2 kings 2:19-22

As a long as God is God and He is alive and well no negative situation is hopeless for beyond His ability to change things. He is still a great and wonderful miracle working God who healed and delivered Job and restored to him double all his losses! He is the God who raised Lazarus from the dead when it seemed that Jesus didn't care that he died! He is the God who can do anything but fail His trusting ones like when He brought Joseph from a prison to a palace!

"And the patriarchs, becoming envious, sold Joseph into Egypt. But God was with him "and delivered him out of all his troubles, and gave him favor and wisdom in the presence of Pharaoh, king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. Acts 7:9-10

They wandered in the wilderness in a desolate way; They found no city to dwell in. Hungry and thirsty, Their soul fainted in them. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, And He delivered them out of their distresses. And He led them forth by the right way, That they might go to a city for a dwelling place. Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men! For He satisfies the longing soul, And fills the hungry soul with goodness. Psalm 107:4-9

[ September 24, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: greatday ]

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

greatday,

Then what are you doing behind that computer? Get to Africa where 80% of the population has AIDS. Go to Latin America where most of the population is Christian and use your "faith" to bring the "prosperity" needed to combat the horrible conditions brought upon the common people by a global capitalist economy.

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,' and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." James 2:14-17

It requires a individualized and shallow definition of faith (I could add selfish) to place personal prosperity at the top of any list of what it means to be faith-ful. Give me a break! Doesn't the undeniable existence of evil and suffering in the world (even in the lives of Christians) give you any pause about this message?

Job is not dealing with questions of personal prosperity, but the failure of God to live up to our expectations. And if it makes you uncomfortable that the scriptures are ambiguous on that topic then that points to a theological/hermeneutical problem on your part, not a failure on the part of the scriptures themselves.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[greatday]

Go to Latin America where most of the population is Christian and use your "faith" to bring the "prosperity" needed to combat the horrible conditions brought upon the common people by a global capitalist economy.

Your cynicism is noted! And that is why Christians are some of dumbest and poorest people of the world because of God’s word:

JER 2:13 "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water.

Did you know that according to the Baptist Press the average member of a Southern Baptist church is an uneducated married low income female of 48 years of age?

9:35 Then Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
9:36 But when He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were weary and scattered, like sheep having no shepherd.
9:37 Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
9:38 "Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest." Matthew

[ September 25, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: greatday ]

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by greatday:
Obviously most scholars are idiots because God didn't create scholars to run the world and neither did he create the bible just so scholars could study it! God is very pragmatic and He told man to be prosperous.

Well that settles it then. Case closed. "Greatday" has spoken. Too bad the folks mentioned in Hebrews 11:35b-39 didn't realize such prosperity at the end of their days.

 

[greatday]

Too bad the folks mentioned in Hebrews 11:35b-39 didn't realize such prosperity at the end of their days.

Yes, too bad the 'Class B' folks in 3rd class seats didn't realize prosperity at the end of their days while 'Class A' folks in 1st class seats did!

And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 11:33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 11:34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Subduing kingdoms, working righteousness, obtaining promises, stopping the mouth of lions, escaping the edge of the sword, being healed, being valiant in battle and turning to flight the armies of the aliens is being prosperous in my book and in any book!

PS 35:27 Let them shout for joy and be glad, Who favor my righteous cause; And let them say continually, "Let the LORD be magnified, Who has pleasure in the prosperity of His servant."

[ September 25, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: greatday ]

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by greatday:
Yes, too bad the 'Class B' folks in 3rd class seats didn't realize prosperity at the end of their days while 'Class A' folks in 1st class seats did!

[/QUOTE]

Umm...So why are the people I mentioned "'Class B' folks in 3rd class seats"? This I got to hear...

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by greatday:
Subduing kingdoms, working righteousness, obtaining promises, stopping the mouth of lions, escaping the edge of the sword, being healed, being valiant in battle and turning to flight the armies of the aliens is being prosperous in my book and in any book!

BTW, I wasn't referring to these folks.

 

[greatday]

Yes, too bad the 'Class B' folks in 3rd class seats didn't realize prosperity at the end of their days while 'Class A' folks in 1st class seats did!

 

[Daniel Dunivan]

Your cynicism is noted! And that is why Christians are some of dumbest and poorest people of the world because of God’s word:

JER 2:13 "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, And hewn themselves cisterns-broken cisterns that can hold no water.

You obviously haven't understood the context of the passage you have quoted from Jeremiah. He is speaking about the people forsaking worship of the true God for worship of idols (which are useless as broken cisterns). Before you spout off about being "dumb," make sure your comments aren't reflexive.

You can call my observation of evil in the world cynicism, but how much do you make a year? Can your interpretation of scripture match up with life? Somehow I doubt it even matches up with your own.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

[greatday]

The curse of the LORD is on the house of the wicked, But He blesses the home of the just. Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble. The wise shall inherit glory, But shame shall be the legacy of fools. Proverbs 3:33-35

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Let me express a personal note here.

God has blessed me materially from time to time. He has intervened in such a way that I could see it happening as he provided housing and work.

But He hasn't chosen to make me as wealthy as I would like to be. Maybe there are some limits to omnipotence after all . . . (just kidding)

 

[greatday]

"When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, "if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:13-14

The Lord who gives grace to the humble and scorns the scornful has promised great blessings to His people if they will humble themselves, and pray and seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways. He has promised to hear from heaven, and forgive their sin and heal their land. You cannot have more blessing than this?