"The Call of God" OR "The Calls of God?"

[KenH]

In this context, a sheep is one for whom Jesus died, suffering the full penalty for all of his sins so that there is no longer any hindrance to his full enjoyment of God's presence. One person cannot make another person become a sheep. One is a sheep only on the basis that Jesus suffered the full penalty for his sins. Further, a sheep is not a goat and a goat is not a sheep.

 

[William C]

Yes, Jesus died for the sheep, but he also died for the world. Just because one says I gave you a ticket, does that mean its not possible that he gave others tickets as well. One becomes a sheep by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ. Some cannot believe while Christ was on earth due to their hardening (John 12) and therefore cannot be his sheep. It was granted to them to hear, see and understand at that time.

 

[KenH]

You have made a real theological hobby horse of hardening, haven't you, Bill.

 

[Frogman]

It's like bondo, mix a little filler and a little hardner, but be careful, too much hardner and well, it's just useless. We could play baseball with it though.

 

[tyndale1946]

Hey I like this game of words... What is the gospel?... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

Question... Is the call of God or the calls of God... Long distance or local? ... Brother Glen

 

[Frogman]

Or is it a regional calling plan?

 

[William C]

You all have resported once again to MUMBO JUMBO.

Goodbye.

 

[tyndale1946]

Do you call on God or do you wait till he calls you first?... Or is it a mutual arrangement... God is waiting for YOUR call?... Isn't theology and doctrine fun?... Brother Glen

 

[William C]

God calls first. You just assume we are unable to answer. That's the error of your doctrine.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
You just assume we are unable to answer.

It's not an assumption. It is what Jesus said.

John 6:44(NASB)
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65(NASB)
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Jesus said it twice, and still you won't believe Him, Bill.

 

[Frogman]

I have a telephone test set, we used them to test lines when working around existing cables to see if we had cut one when we found loose cable in the ditch; this would seem to be an unfair advantage as I can access any telephone pedestal I am near and even call upon God from the line he providentially had installed into another's home. Is this justice????

Hey, for a small love offering of just 25.00 I can tell you how to make your own 'test-set.' Then you too would have access to God, just dial the numbers I tell you and then write me and let me know you have decided to follow Christ and I will send you the diagram of how to build a more effective 'test-set' ....

 

[William C]

The Bible says that no one can come to him UNLESS he is drawn.

The bible also says in John 12 that Jesus draws all men to himself.

You also should consider the fact that the gospel being sent by the apostles into all the world was a means by which Christ, through the Holy Spirit, would draw man to himself.

So, I agree. No one can come to a party without an invitation. Jesus hadn't invited anyone expcept for the apostles to come and learn from him directly while he was on earth. In fact, he veiled the gospel from the Jews and hardened them so they would not believe. He wasn't inviting them yet, he was going to the cross first, then he was going to ingraft the Gentiles while the Jews remain hardened.

So back to the analogy.

Man cannot call God = Man cannot seek God
Man cannot come to God unless he draws him = Man cannot answer the phone unless God calls him

Does God call man? Yes.

Do all men answer? No.

Why? Because some are unwilling. (Matt. 23:37)

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally posted by Frogman:

Hey, for a small love offering of just 25.00 I can tell you how to make your own 'test-set.' Then you too would have access to God, just dial the numbers I tell you and then write me and let me know you have decided to follow Christ and I will send you the diagram of how to build a more effective 'test-set' ....

Stop it Brother Dallas I'm in stitches... ROFLOL!... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

The Billy Graham Tour just pulled into San Diego... The stadium will be packed... There will be a lot of phone calls this weekend!... Like I always say... To each!... His own!... Brother Glen

... Brother Dallas with that kind of attitude you will never work on this board again ... Just kidding!... You are a hoot my brother

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
The Bible also says in John 12 that Jesus draws all men to himself.

Actually, the Bible does not say that. The Greek has "I...will draw all unto me." The word "men" is italicized in the KJV meaning that it was added by the translators. The Amplified Bible adds after the word "men" - "(Gentile as well as Jew)". Which is what the context supports as I will shortly explain.

So, Bill, you are reading your presupposition into the text. How sad.

Look at the context of this event.

John 12:20-23(NASB)
20 Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast;
21 these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, “Sir, we wish to see Jesus.”
22 Philip *came and *told Andrew; Andrew and Philip *came and *told Jesus.
23 And Jesus *answered them, saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

The context proves that the word "all" refers to Gentiles as well as Jews(isn't that the argument you keep using ad nauseam in Romans 9, Bill? Well now it rises back on you to bite you.). The context does not support the Arminian assertion that Jesus is referring to every person who has or will ever live, but that Gentiles are to be included in God's drawing of the His elect as well as Jews in the gospel of the kingdom of God in the new covenant.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
The Bible also says in John 12 that Jesus draws all men to himself.

Actually, the Bible does not say that. The Greek has "I...will draw all unto me." The word "men" is italicized in the KJV meaning that it was added by the translators. The Amplified Bible adds after the word "men" - "(Gentile as well as Jew)". Which is what the context supports as I will shortly explain.

So, Bill, you are reading your presupposition into the text. How sad. </font>[/QUOTE]So you don't believe God draws all men? Then why call all men? Calling is a form of drawing and even Calvinist admit that the gospel calls all men to repentance and faith.

The context proves that the word "all" refers to Gentiles as well as Jews(isn't that the argument you keep using ad nauseam in Romans 9, Bill? Well now it rises back on you to bite you.).

That's funny. You'll admit this argument when it suits your system but otherwise you won't even consider it.

Yes, it's possible that "all" refers to people of all nations, but its also possible that it refers to all people. How do we know? Who does God call to repentance and faith? All people. That is a form of drawing all men to himself, is it not? The gospel is the means by which God draws people to himself.

Plus, you missed the point that no one was granted the position of apostleship except the 12, so it is also very possible that Jesus is refering to his audiences inability to come to him in the flesh and learn from him directly as the apostles have. Look at the context. Jesus follows up by saying, "Have I not chosen you the 12."

 

[KenH]

God's drawing is not the same as the general call of the gospel, Bill. God's drawing never fails. Those whom the Father draws, Jesus said He would raise up to eternal life. There is nothing taught in the Bible of one being drawn by the Father but not being raised to eternal life by Jesus. The universe of those drawn and those raised to eternal life are the same people. This is clearly evident in John chapter 6.

 

[William C]

Your ignoring my argument.

I argued that I believe the ones Jesus is refering to drawing are those he has drawn from Israel to be his apostles.

I just stated that other view as a possiblity. BTW, it is possible that the formation of this sentence that those he draws are not necessarily raised up but that their is an assumed condition met. I could go further but I really don't hold to that view so I won't bother.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
I argued that I believe the ones Jesus is refering to drawing are those he has drawn from Israel to be his apostles.

I am not ignoring your argument. I have stated my case why I disagree with your argument.

Have you noticed, Bill, that whenever someone gives an alternative explanation to your explanation of a passage, you never accept the other person's explanation as a de facto refutation of your explanation.

That is like a basketball team using a slow-down offense and unless their opponent also used a slow-down offense but instead used an up-tempo offense to thrash them, you would say that that the up-tempo team really didn't soundly defeat the slow-down team because they didn't defeat them using the same slow-down offense.

I refuse to allow you to control the tempo of my responses, Bill. You'll have to find someone who will be gullible enough to let you do so. I don't think there is a Calvinist who posts in this forum who is gullible.