The Call to Preach

[LeBuick]

But having dealt with you, and reading your posts, you have such a high standard that has to be met... that even some preachers in the Bible would have a problem pleasing you... so your 5% doesn't really surprise me....

I wonder which percentile Jesus would fall in?


Mt 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[gb93433]

Romans 10:14, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Preaching is not the exclusive right of someone standing before a congregation on Sunday. Every believer is called to preach. The fact is that the churches are growing the most where persecution is the highest.

I often wonder how much comfortable theology would vanish if we were under persecution.

 

[4His_glory]

Romans 10:14, "How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Preaching is not the exclusive right of someone standing before a congregation on Sunday. Every believer is called to preach. The fact is that the churches are growing the most where persecution is the highest.

I often wonder how much comfortable theology would vanish if we were under persecution.

If we reduce preaching down to simply declaring the Gospel then you are right. But there is a calling to be a pastor and when we speak of preaching in our contemporary setting we mean a pulpit ministry. One needs to be called of God to proclaim is Word in that manner. He needs a certain amount of training (aka. "not a novice").

Not just anyone can lead a local congregation.

 

[gb93433]

If we reduce preaching down to simply declaring the Gospel then you are right. But there is a calling to be a pastor and when we speak of preaching in our contemporary setting we mean a pulpit ministry. One needs to be called of God to proclaim is Word in that manner. He needs a certain amount of training (aka. "not a novice").

Not just anyone can lead a local congregation.

Proclaiming the good news and pastoring are entirely two different things. Billy Graham proclaimed the good news for many years but did not like pastoring a local church.

Training does not prove a person's ability to lead. A pastor must be a proven leader in terms of making disciples. Every believer is called to go and make disciples. If a man has not made any disciples then he does not have the maturity to lead. Today many are called leaders and are not proven.

 

[4His_glory]

Proclaiming the good news and pastoring are entirely two different things.

Which was my point

Training does not prove a person's ability to lead.

I agree, but one must know how to properly interpret the Word of God if he is to have a pulpit ministry. And training is necessary for this.

A pastor must be a proven leader in terms of making disciples.

I may have missed it but I do not recall seeing being a disciple maker in the lists of pastoral qualifications in for a pastor in 1 Tim. and Titus.

Every believer is called to go and make disciples.

Amen and amen

If a man has not made any disciples then he does not have the maturity to lead.

Then Judson, who labored for years in Burma before seeing a single disciple was not mature to lead? It seems to me you are adding a new qualification. Visible fruit is not the sign of a successful leader.

 

[gb93433]

I may have missed it but I do not recall seeing being a disciple maker in the lists of pastoral qualifications in for a pastor in 1 Tim. and Titus.

It seems to me you are adding a new qualification. Visible fruit is not the sign of a successful leader.

If there is no fruit there is no leadership. How can you even substantiate your view by taking a look at Jesus' life and any of His disciples. Can you explain how the church would have ever grown if it had no leadership and no visible fruit?

Matthew 28:19, 20, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Mt. 28:19, 20 is a command not an option.

Jn 15:1-6, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."

I do not see any place in scripture where a person who follows Christ who never makes any disciples who follow Christ.

 

[Tom Bryant]

This insistence on visible "fruit" (as if every time the Bible mentions fruit it has to do with making disciples) would rule out some missionaries who faithfullly serve and see few disciples made.

 

[Aaron]

Where do you buy those wide brushes? How do you quantify this kind of accusation?

Let me rephrase my statement. About 5% of the preachers that I know are truly qualified.

 

[Aaron]

YOu are very intelligent.. and God can really use someone like you to work for him.. if you would understand grace.

Kind words, Tim, but I'm not qualified.

Now MY pastor . . . eminently qualified. He has no formal education, but he is mighty in the Scriptures, and his character is impeccable. He's more liberal with music than I am, but no one's perfect. :saint:

 

[Aaron]

Amen and amen. I can see why some who are not called look upon it as something strange and distant. But its one of those things you have to experience to be able to understand.

This is not true. You're implying that the operations of the other gifts of the Spirit are less compelling or urgent. I would remind you that you aren't the judge of your call or qualifications, the congregation is.

I can not picture myself doing anything else but serving God in full time ministry. Like the prophet Jeremiah said- it burns in my bones. This is impossible to explain to others.

I don't mean to be picking on you, personally. I'm responding to your statements because they are typical of the kind of the secret-society mentality of many preachers. I have no doubt that while you muse, the fire burns, but this is something that everyone who is filled with the Spirit experiences. Just having this feeling isn't laudable. One who can hold his peace while the fire burns is to be praised, Prov. 16:32, 25:28; 1 Cor. 14:32.

That fact that one says that he can't see himself doing anything else is a red flag to me. (And this isn't about you personally. I hear this alot.) I would not have a man who couldn't be humble enough to be a door-keeper in the house of the Lord to presume to be my spiritual guide. My pastor did not seek the office. The congregation called him. He would be just as content to be called to shovel the sidewalks on snowy days as to stand in the pulpit and expound the things of God to us.

He has no formal education. He worked as a farmer, and now drives a truck to earn his living. But I know no one who is as mighty in the Scriptures, whose character is as impeccable, or who would truly lay down his life for the sheep as this man.

Begin a pastor or missionary or in some other type of full time ministry is not a "glamorous job." It is a task the requires more than just physical and mental labor, but emotional and spiritual as well. It is very exhausting and draining at times. Trust me, there have been times I cried my eyes out and poured my heart out to God to lead me to something different that would be "easier". But then that God-exalting, Christ-magnifying, burning passionate desire to serve God fills my heart with joy and I am once again set upon my task and calling.

These are good words. It appears that you might have a real view of the pastorate, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a position of eminence, and a position that many who desire the preeminence strive for. And, would you still do it if your congregation were the same as Jeremiah's?

 

[StefanM]

Besides, I think most who are going into the ministry do so because of their desire for the preeminence. In my estimation, only about 5% of those who are in the pulpit are truly qualified.

I don't think that's the case. If I were seeking prominence, I would have simply continued onto medical school (as I planned to do). Making $200,000 a year and living a much nicer house is far more pre-eminent than any position I'll have in ministry.

 

[Aaron]

I wonder which percentile Jesus would fall in?

Who do you think I compare you guys to?

 

[4His_glory]

Let me rephrase my statement. About 5% of the preachers that I know are truly qualified.

And 100% of church members I know are qualified to worship and serve God. But God receives their worship anyway. If a pastor meets the qualifications of God´s word then you have no place to say he is not qualified. Those qualifications are pretty clear in the Scriptures.

This is not true. You're implying that the operations of the other gifts of the Spirit are less compelling or urgent. I would remind you that you aren't the judge of your call or qualifications, the congregation is.

No sir. That is not implied at all. But it is clear in the Bible that God calls some to a ministry of the Word that is a leadership position over the other sheep.
An no I am not the judge of my qualifications, I think I said I am unworthy of serving God. But neither is the congregation the judge, God is. And He has chosen to use me in this ministry.

I'm responding to your statements because they are typical of the kind of the secret-society mentality of many preachers. I have no doubt that while you muse, the fire burns, but this is something that everyone who is filled with the Spirit experiences. Just having this feeling isn't laudable.

No, there is no secret society mentality. That is a straw man of your own making. I don´t know about the circles you are in put most pastors are the most humble people I know.

Why do you have a bone to pick with pastors?

 

[gb93433]

This insistence on visible "fruit" (as if every time the Bible mentions fruit it has to do with making disciples) would rule out some missionaries who faithfullly serve and see few disciples made.

In Jn 15 we notice what happens to those who do not produce fruit. More wood on a vine does not equate to fruit. We cannot call wood, fruit. In the secular world one would be fired if they could not do their job. The job of every believer is to make disciples and I do not see how we can escape what Jesus commanded.

In the gospels Jesus had told His disciples what to do if a group of people did not receive them.

Luke 9:5, "And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them." Departing, they began going throughout the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere."

"Few disciples" is still visible fruit. When we take a look at the parable of the talents I see no evidence that we are to bury what God has given us but rather use what God has already given for His glory and furthering the kingdom.

 

[Aaron]

Why do you have a bone to pick with pastors?

I don't have bone to pick with pastors, only those who presume to be pastors. Again, this isn't about you personally. My comments are about the sentiments that are commonly expressed.

 

[LeBuick]

Who do you think I compare you guys to?

No one said we were Jesus but when you reject his messanger you're rejecting Him.
A Minister is simply one who has given his life to the calling of serving and feeding of Gods sheep.

Mt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.