The Calvinist hated the Ana-Baptists

[rockytopva]

'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.'
Ever since the time of KIng Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3:1-7), and probably before, rulers have felt that it is necessary for all their subjects to have the same religion for the sake of peace and order. When King Charles 1 appointed the Arminian William Laud Archbishop of Canterbury in 1633, he persecuted the Calvinists viciously. Today you may think not only of the Moslem countries but India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and maybe Russia.
The Anabaptists were the first people to propose the separation of Church and State, and for that they deserve our respect, even if their theology was generally pretty ropey.

The first people to combine sound theology with freedom of worship were the Independents and Baptists.

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matthew 18:20

I experienced Christ in such denominations and helped a niece get through Liberty University. The movements that influenced me as a teenager were…

1. GARBC Baptist - Many a spiritual youth retreat and revival
2. Freewill Baptist - Used to love the communion-foot washing services
3. Pentecostal Holiness- Wonderful revivals and experiences in sanctification

If I could go back in time I would love to have experienced that all over again. Especially to sit in church with those whom I considered sanctified. In meditating on this thread I miss the old writings of John Bunyan and the encouragement and sense of holiness. In those meetings there was a sense of Christ in the midst of us. The warning to the Philadelphian…

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out… - Revelation 3:12

Noting… “No more go out.” Which is disappointing when we take the turn to Laodicean. An example of this is the disappointments we have in men like Jerry Falwell Jr who need to re-acquire some kind of sense of holiness in their life. Liberty University went on to fire son Trey as well desiring to distance themselves from such activity.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...6a1568-eccc-11ea-b4bc-3a2098fc73d4_story.html

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. - Hebrews 10:25

I worry, in these COVID times, that we do not spend enough time together in quality Christian conference and the result is reflected in sloppy Christian living minus the John Bunyan kind of holiness.

 

[rockytopva]

When are you going to stop with the ridiculous lie that DL Moody was somehow the first person to make money off of ministry?

DL Moody did a wonderful work. Ira Sankey printed a little pamphlet of 23 of his favorite “Sacred Songs and Solos.” It was well received, and eventually grew to a book of 1,200 pieces. At one time Sankey’s books of hymns had sold more copies than any book save the Bible. One publisher sold more than 80 million copies.

I have read on some complaining over all the money generated. But… I have lost my references so I will go on to say I was wrong. My apologies. I do not mind being righteously corrected.

 

[rockytopva]

When are you going to stop with the ridiculous lie that DL Moody was somehow the first person to make money off of ministry?

I believe the Laodicean way of life began here in America. I wonder of it’s origins.

 

[rockytopva]

Rocky,

I hurt you.

Please accept my apology.

SGO

No problems here, and I may be wrong in some points. If I am in error I will admit and apologize. If I think I am right I will go on to defend my position. No problems! God’s blessings on you!

 

[rockytopva]

And we may have an argument for OSAS here…

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. - John 10:27-28

iIn which case, you can believe in OSAS and not be Calvinist.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't believe John Wesley willed the denomination and the UMC was the offspring of Asbury. Here in a Philadelphian church age type letter, like Bunyan would have wrote, to Francis Asbury where he chastises Asbury for such activity....

LONDON
September 20, 1788


My Dear Brother:

There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation wherein you stand to the Americans and the relation wherein I stand to all the Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am under God the father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore I in a measure provide for you all; for the supplies which Dr. Coke provides for you, he could not provide were it not for me, were it not that I not only permit him to collect but also support him in so doing.

But in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid both the Doctor and you differ from me. I study to be little: you study to be great. I creep; you strut along. I found a school: you a college! [Cokesbury College] nay, and call it after your own names! 0 beware, do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing, and "Christ be all in all!"

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me Bishop! For my sake, for God's sake, for Christ's sake put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am Your affectionate friend and brother,

John Wesley

 

[AustinC]

I believe the Laodicean way of life began here in America. I wonder of it’s origins.

...so it wasn't in...Laodicea...?

 

[rockytopva]

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado? And a special note here, and that is that my congregation could not keep the revived spirit, which makes me want to sit down and weep with John the Revelator!

...so it wasn't in...Laodicea...?

If so… Why are the churches a mystery?

 

[AustinC]

If so… Why are the churches a mystery?

All seven churches are identified in Revelation 2 & 3. There is no mystery.

 

[rockytopva]

All seven churches are identified in Revelation 2 & 3. There is no mystery.

Then the Bible is wrong!

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

 

[Rob_BW]

I believe the Laodicean way of life began here in America. I wonder of it’s origins.

But in the previous 1800 years of Christianity, nobody profited from ministry before DL Moody? That premise is untenable to the point of being ridiculous.

We've discussed it before, but you continue to re-post it. Why not just edit out this part of your copy and paste church ages theory?

 

[rockytopva]

But in the previous 1800 years of Christianity, nobody profited from ministry before DL Moody? That premise is untenable to the point of being ridiculous.

We've discussed it before, but you continue to re-post it. Why not just edit out this part of your copy and paste church ages theory?

I was looking for a beginning of the Laodicean church. I must consider this and find new origins.

 

[Rob_BW]

I don't believe John Wesley willed the denomination and the UMC was the offspring of Asbury. Here in a Philadelphian church age type letter, like Bunyan would have wrote, to Francis Asbury where he chastises Asbury for such activity....

LONDON
September 20, 1788


My Dear Brother:

There is, indeed, a wide difference between the relation wherein you stand to the Americans and the relation wherein I stand to all the Methodists. You are the elder brother of the American Methodists: I am under God the father of the whole family. Therefore I naturally care for you all in a manner no other persons can do. Therefore I in a measure provide for you all; for the supplies which Dr. Coke provides for you, he could not provide were it not for me, were it not that I not only permit him to collect but also support him in so doing.

But in one point, my dear brother, I am a little afraid both the Doctor and you differ from me. I study to be little: you study to be great. I creep; you strut along. I found a school: you a college! [Cokesbury College] nay, and call it after your own names! 0 beware, do not seek to be something! Let me be nothing, and "Christ be all in all!"

One instance of this, of your greatness, has given me great concern. How can you, how dare you suffer yourself to be called Bishop? I shudder, I start at the very thought! Men may call me a knave or a fool, a rascal, a scoundrel, and I am content; but they shall never by my consent call me Bishop! For my sake, for God's sake, for Christ's sake put a full end to this! Let the Presbyterians do what they please, but let the Methodists know their calling better.

Thus, my dear Franky, I have told you all that is in my heart. And let this, when I am no more seen, bear witness how sincerely I am Your affectionate friend and brother,

John Wesley

Puzzling, as he remained a member of a denomination that ordained bishops, right?

 

[rockytopva]

In my generation people are judged by who best kept the American dream. If you have an education, a family, a $500,000 home, nice vehicles in the driveway, a wonderful career you are judged to have done well. I wonder, though, if the ends there is not Laodicean.

 

[Rob_BW]

What is Charismatic about having a nice car, a nice job, or an education?

 

[rockytopva]

What is Charismatic about having a nice car, a nice job, or an education?

Quoting "Charismatic movement formed in this time" (which is admittingly better said without including the Moody). I believe the materialism formed in this time...

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;- 1 Timothy 6:17-18

I believe you can have riches, do well, and still remain Christian. It is when the highminded spirit accompanies the materialism that things go wrong. Highminded according the Strongs...

hypsēlophroneō - to be high minded, proud from a compound of G5308 and G5424; to be lofty in mind, i.e. arrogant:—be highminded.

G5308 - hypsēlos high, lofty exalted on high with an uplifted arm, i.e. with signal power metaph. eminent, exalted in influence and honour to set the mind on, to seek, high things (as honours and riches), to be aspiring

G5424 - phrēn
1. the midriff or diaphragm, the parts about the heart.
2. the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging:

 

[rockytopva]

What is Charismatic about having a nice car, a nice job, or an education?

And to use the Liberty University as an example, Jonathan Falwell has arrived at the American dream and done well. Jerry Falwell Jr arrived at the American dream and became an embarrassment.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. - Genesis 4:7

And if Jonathan Falwell continues in the good way he will continue to do well. In which I also, wish he and his family well.

 

[Rob_BW]

Quoting "Charismatic movement formed in this time" (which is admittingly better said without including the Moody). I believe the materialism formed in this time...

Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;- 1 Timothy 6:17-18

I believe you can have riches, do well, and still remain Christian. It is when the highminded spirit accompanies the materialism that things go wrong. Highminded according the Strongs...

hypsēlophroneō - to be high minded, proud from a compound of G5308 and G5424; to be lofty in mind, i.e. arrogant:—be highminded.

G5308 - hypsēlos high, lofty exalted on high with an uplifted arm, i.e. with signal power metaph. eminent, exalted in influence and honour to set the mind on, to seek, high things (as honours and riches), to be aspiring

G5424 - phrēn
1. the midriff or diaphragm, the parts about the heart.
2. the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging:

So you pick the mid 19th century as the beginning of materialism? Seems like you're shoehorning the history of Christendom into your scheme, while ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

Like, enormous examples of materialism:

 

[AustinC]

Then the Bible is wrong!

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

The Bible isn't wrong. Your theory is, however, wrong. Yet, you will not accept that your theory is wrong. You are very locked in to a man-made age theory that John never speaks of at all within any area of Revelation. You have brought it in from outside the Bible and you try to force the Bible to conform with your theory rather than have your theory be directed by the Bible. You are approaching from a backward view and thus cannot see that your initial assumption is wrong. More than myself has told you this, but you will not listen or accept it. Thus, I leave you to it.

 

[rockytopva]

So you pick the mid 19th century as the beginning of materialism? Seems like you're shoehorning the history of Christendom into your scheme, while ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

Like, enormous examples of materialism:

The Bible isn't wrong. Your theory is, however, wrong. Yet, you will not accept that your theory is wrong. You are very locked in to a man-made age theory that John never speaks of at all within any area of Revelation. You have brought it in from outside the Bible and you try to force the Bible to conform with your theory rather than have your theory be directed by the Bible. You are approaching from a backward view and thus cannot see that your initial assumption is wrong. More than myself has told you this, but you will not listen or accept it. Thus, I leave you to it.

The church quoted does not belong to an individual but some church organization. And the clergy of that church organization probably quite poor.

"I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." - Revelation 1:11

Only Christ Jesus knows the full geography and times. I believe that Jesus wanted the last word on that which would befall us in time and this was the best way to put it. The geographical churches is in what is known as proconsular Asia is 99% Muslim.I don't believe the word spoken was intended for a Muslim country but is for the church which would evolve in time.