The Calvinists have left the building!

Maybe there is a difference in Calvinism, but this is not found anywhere an the entire Bible. Before you make such bold statements, why don't you Calvinists support your nonsense from the Word of God? I challenge any Calvinist to show from Scripture, that Regeneration and Conversion are not one and the same thing. I am not interested in your warped theological nonsense, but Biblical data. </font>[/QUOTE]Read the explanation of the parable of the sower:

Matthew 13:18-23
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Please note that 4 people received seed, that is heard the Gospel. Only one was saved. That one is the one who received seed into the good ground. What was different about this man than the other three? Why did he understand and receive the Gospel? Why was the Gospel effectual for him. For the simple reason that he had been regenerated, made spiritually alive.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pages 277ff notes about regeneration:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed.

The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV]”

Once again: Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

The 4th man in the parable is converted, that is responded effectually to the Gospel Call, because he had undergone regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

 

Regeneration preceeds conversion. Third chapter of John teaches that no one has control over their regeneration. The Holy Spirit does whatever he will and there is no logical tracking of the Holy Spirit. It is a chaiotic process, a random walk. That's what Jesus taught, anyway. &lt;G&gt;

Dagg was one of the last Reformed Baptists of note. Got his theology someplace.

 

I have Dagg's Manual of Theology, published by Gano Books. I think I got it from Christian Book Distributors of Mass. They don't list it now, neither does Gano.

 

Greeting. Yes, I used to think that too, many moons ago, as a young immature Christian who thought he could understand the big picture via syllogistic reasoning propped up by isolated verses that are capable of other understandings. I learned that that approach was wrong. God is more interested in 'heart hermeneutics'. I hope you too will see that God is alot bigger than a Reformation theological system never known before the publication of the Institutes. I could go on for a long time offering psycho analysis of the Calvinist mind, and it wouldn't do much good (and I would probably get booted off). I hope that we would agree that Scripture, and not any person or historical period, ought to serve as our final appeal.

Ephesians 2:1-10 makes the following observations:

1, we were dead in trespasses and sins
2, God quickened us or made us alive, or gave us new life (Agreed?)
3, We were saved by grace

Now then, stopping there (verse 5), one must ask, what correlation does being quickened in the first part of the verse have with being saved by grace? I would suggest that the latter answers to the former -

"when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

Now you cannot agree with this simple identification, because verse 8 would play against you, for this shows that the instrumentality of receiving this grace is FAITH.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

How do you read it?

So from a reading of this passage, I cannot conceive how you can have regeneration followed by faith, when regeneration is being 'saved by grace', and grace comes 'through faith'.

I thought it was the custom of the Church of Rome to add their own dogmatising to scripture? You have run far from the scripture in this unwarranted extrapolation. I trust that you will return to Scripture and respond to the points made re: Eph 2. And one last thing - in scripture, repentance comes BEFORE faith. Now I know that that doesn't fit into the Calvinistic scheme, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Dean

 

"Regeneration preceds conversion"? Are you trying to equate "regeneration" with "conviction"? The Greek for "regeneration", as found in Titus 3:5, is, "palingenesia", from "palin"="again", and, "genesis"="birth", which is the "new birth". Ardnt and Gingrich in their Greek lexicon, says of the word: "of the rebirth of a redeemed person...bath of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (p.611). In Acts 15:3 we read: "...declaring the conversion (Greek, epistrophe) of the gentiles" (see also 1 Thess. 1:9, "turned")

It is very clear in Scripture, as seen from the passages I have shown, that there is no difference between "regeneration" and "conversion". The former is the work of the Holy Spirit, the latter, the repentant sinner. When a sinner turns to Jesus as their Saviour and Lord, at that time they are "converted" (as seen in the 1 Thess. passage, "how you truned (converted) to God from idols, to serve the living and true God"), and the Holy Spirit saved them "by the washing of regeneration".

This is where Calvinism is in grave error. They falsly teach that a person is "regenerated" before they "turn from their sins". In effect saying, according to Biblical understanding of the terms, that you are "born-again" before you repent and turn from your sins. This is a complete nonsense.

 

Icthus, let us first not quibble over a term that is only used twice in the New Testament- only one of which actually referring to the act of salvation itself. Secondly let's remember that regeneration in Titus 3:5 is placed between mercy and renewal (as if to say it is the thing that happens between the two). And thirdly, let's not pass over the fact that physical birth does not occur in 5 minutes but across 9 months of preparation, and sometimes 1-3 days of travail. Birth is an adequate metaphor for salvation because of it's heaviness on the heart when one recognizes his own lost state- and some men are caught in this travail for weeks. This period of time before and up to actual renewal could be considered their birthing, when mind and soul are vexed and Christ at last conquers their heart of stone.

'Calvinists' have done no wrong to place paliggenesia between mercy and renewal. That is it's proper place in Titus 3:5, and there are no other scriptures using that word to prove the alternate view.

 

Wes

Just answer some of the questions which I asked above for the second time [regarding your ridiculous assertions repeated above] before you go wandering off with other ridiculous assertions listed below from your last post:

Wes! Wes! Wes!

If you would just read before you go off on the deep end you would find most of your wanderings, or should I be polite and call them musings, answered.

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

 

Dean
1.I am sorry that you have been seduced into a misunderstanding of Scripture. Why not let God be God?
2. I am glad to see that you can still use fancy words [syllogistic].
3. I am pleased that you can psychoanalyze a man who has been dead 3-400 years. Reminds me of those leftwing psychologists who psychoanalyzed Goldwater and Reagan from afar.
4. My theology comes from reading the Bible. I have never read anything written by Calvin.

1. You misinterpret Verse 8. We are saved by Grace. Grace doesn't come through faith. Faith like salvation is the Gift of God.
2. I have never stated that regeneration is the completion of Salvation. I compare Salvation to a multifaceted gem:

A. Election
B. Regeneration and
C. Union with Jesus Christ
D. Effectual Calling
E. Conversion
E1. Saving Faith
E2. Repentance
F. Pardon
G. Justification [by faith]
H. Adoption
I. Sanctification
J. Perseverance
K. Assurance
L. Glorification

By way of comment I would say that election must precede regeneration, regeneration must precede conversion.

[/QUOTE]response by dean198:
I thought it was the custom of the Church of Rome to add their own dogmatising to scripture? You have run far from the scripture in this unwarranted extrapolation. I trust that you will return to Scripture and respond to the points made re: Eph 2. And one last thing - in scripture, repentance comes BEFORE faith. Now I know that that doesn't fit into the Calvinistic scheme, but there's nothing I can do about it.

Dean [/QUOTE]

I can't really speak to the problems of the Roman Catholic Church. However, I can recommend a Forum where you can discuss their problems with them.

I have never left Scripture. I would say that the Arminian is much closer to the Church of Rome than I am.


YOU TELL ME. HOW CAN AN UNBELIEVER REPENT?

 

Load of bull?? Disrespect for Scripture gets worse all th time.

You still haven't learned after all this time. Calvinists do believe that the atonement of Christ was sufficient for all who believe. The offer of hte gospel is genuine, and your distortion of our position is wrong. You continually do it and you should repent and stop.

That's quite a distortion as well, which you probably know, but can't bring yourself to tell the truth about what we beleive.

It is the case that what Calvinists teach about salvation is the teaching revealed by God in Scripture.

 

It is a dangerous thing to accuse another of misinterpreting a verse when that person simply affirms what it says in black and white. I wonder if it is really worth discussing this, since your mindset appears absolutely incapable of even considering a verse in an impartial manner. And you have to keep falling back on your philosophy. Now then, you tell me this - "You misinterpret Verse 8. We are saved by Grace. Grace doesn't come through faith." But sir, verse 8 DOES say that salvation comes through faith, and this salvation, as seen from verse 5, corresponds to regeneration. There is simply no room in these verses for regeneration/salvation followed by faith/salvation. And even if there is room, it is nowhere necessitated. Nay, there is no room for it, for this grace is mediated THROUGH faith. You say, "But No! it is Salvation!" Well, ok then, Salvation is mediated through faith. Either way you lose.

"For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"

It is not "alongside faith", "prior to faith", or "outside of faith".

It is "THROUGH FAITH" "THROUGH FAITH" "THROUGH FAITH".

By way of comment on what? I fail to see this anywhere in the passage you have directed me to.

Again, in the scriptures, Repentance precedes Faith. Did the writers of scripture simply fail to wear their scholastic glasses? Repentance precedes faith.

Ok then, go ahead and recommend it. Perhaps they will be more open to the plain sense of scripture.

At this point that would be throwing pearls before swine. Since you cannot believe Ephes. 2, how will you believe if I show you other scriptures? Again, you think the strength of your syllogism is in these reasonings, but I will not be drawn into philosophy. I though we were going to discuss scripture? With scripture you don't first ask 'How can it say that' but 'what DOES it say?'

Dean

 

Your notion of atonement has been shown from Scripture to be faulty. There is absolutely no reason for you to continue to hold it. It is unconscionable that you, having been shown the truth, would continue in error.

I am glad to see that your church responded biblically to your false teaching. In so doing, they showed themselves to be faithful to God and his word.

You are right that you are not deceived by my false teachings. Such would be impossible since I don't have false teachings. You have been deceived by others, and that is sad. In your time here, faithful people have shown you the truth and you have shut your mind to it. It is sad to see someone with so much teaching reject God's word in favor of their own opinions. I hope you will change and submit your mind to Scripture.

 

dean198 & WesOutwest

You two can rant and rave all you want but Salvation is the Gift of God. Faith is the Gift of God.

Please, don't try to insult me. That attempt has been made by experts and from reading your posts I assure you that you are not experts, either in casting insults or in interpreting Scripture.

 

So there we have it. Mysterious 'experts' now settle the fact since your man-made philosophy cannot be forced upon the text of Ephes. 2. What a waste of time you are. May the Lord judge between me and thee.