The Calvinists have left the building!

I see where you are coming from, but repentance and faith corresponds to regeneration - dying with Christ by being baptised into his death, and then rising again through faith into newness of life. This is why Paul in both Acts and Hebrews speaks of repentance first, followed by faith.

 

One must first believe in order to recognize that what one does requires repentance. If you don't believe you won't see a need to change and change is what repentance is!

No one repents first then believes! What would the one be repenting from? Believing that there is something better, is the driving force behind repentance, and that force in not put in gear until one believes in that which he determines 'to be better'. Faith in God and repentance from sin works the same way! First you must believe there is a God, and God makes man aware of Himself. Then God through his Holy Spirit causes the one to recognize there is something better. The one believes there is, and accepts the truth, then repents from sin! </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

We finally agree on something: "One must first believe in order to recognize that what one does requires repentance. If you don't believe you won't see a need to change and change is what repentance is!"

 

Its ok Wes - he had to find a way of saving face and leaving the discussion.

 

One must first believe in order to recognize that what one does requires repentance. If you don't believe you won't see a need to change and change is what repentance is! </font>[/QUOTE]

Wes

I am overwhelmed by your gracious response. I leave you with the following quote from MY Savior.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

but that's not the order of Paul! First one changes their mind about God and sin, and then they commit themselves by faith to serve God in baptism, the washing of regeneration.

 

Its ok Wes - he had to find a way of saving face and leaving the discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]I thought you were leaving:

I leave you with the same thought I left with wes, the words of MY Savior:

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

Doesn't matter what Paul comments. I am a Christian, not a Paulian. Paul doesn't supercede Jesus Christ.

 

Icthus, let us first not quibble over a term that is only used twice in the New Testament- only one of which actually referring to the act of salvation itself. Secondly let's remember that regeneration in Titus 3:5 is placed between mercy and renewal (as if to say it is the thing that happens between the two). And thirdly, let's not pass over the fact that physical birth does not occur in 5 minutes but across 9 months of preparation, and sometimes 1-3 days of travail. Birth is an adequate metaphor for salvation because of it's heaviness on the heart when one recognizes his own lost state- and some men are caught in this travail for weeks. This period of time before and up to actual renewal could be considered their birthing, when mind and soul are vexed and Christ at last conquers their heart of stone.

'Calvinists' have done no wrong to place paliggenesia between mercy and renewal. That is it's proper place in Titus 3:5, and there are no other scriptures using that word to prove the alternate view. </font>[/QUOTE]Whetstone, you keep on producing this calvinistic nonsense, which is a complete waste of time and contradicts what Scripture actually says. Firstly, how on earth can you compare the rebirth of a sinner which is through the work of the Holy Spirit, to a woman giving birth to a human? Are you trying to argue from this, that it takes God a long time after we repent, to actually save us? Whether there is one Scripture that teaches that being born-again is the same as regeneration, as Titus 3:5 clearly does, or 1000 texts that says the same thing, does not matter one bit. It is the Word of God, and you either accept what it says, or reject it for some man-made nonsense, what Clavinism really is. You, or any other Calvinist have never been able to show from Scripture, that there is any difference between Conversion and Regeneration. I care not what any theologian says on this issue, since the Scripture shows me very clearly that you and all you hold to this is 100% wrong.

 

The bible speaks both of repentance towards God, and repentance from dead works. Hence both. repentance is simply the change of mind which leads to a person seeking baptism so that they can be born again by the washing of regeneration.

It sounds to me that you believe in a form of antinomian easy believism, but since there is another thread on 'lord salvation' I don't want to get into all that. so it looks like this thread is at an end, at least for me.

 

Some on this Forum insist that Faith is solely the purview of man Himself. I have argued on the basis of Scripture that Faith, like Salvation, is the Gift of God. This truth is clearly shown in Hebrews 12:1, 2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This Scripture tells us very clearly that Jesus is the Author, the Creator, of our Faith. However, there are some on this Forum who choose not to believe what Scripture teaches.

 

This initial post just seems to be an invite to argue for argument's sake. No doubt you guys have rehashed this stuff ad nausuem, so why not start threads that have specific issues to address? Note that I am not trying to say, "Why can't we all get along?", but to just throw out taunting posts like "the Calvinists have left the building" seems to be out of line with our Christian witness. Just a suggestion, but we should attempt to start threads that are actually inquisitive and not just provocative.