GBC Pastor
New Member
Here's six:
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The Case for Arminianism
- Thread starter BobinKy
- Start date
Here's six:
quantumfaith
Active Member
Luke 1616,
History can be really ugly can't it, especially where mankind is involved.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Luke1616, church history is ugly. Thats the plain simple truth of it. We have moved so far from NT church practices and scripture in the past 2000 years that it make me wonder it WE won't be the ones described as "in the days of Noah". Somewhere between the death of the apostles and the merging of the church with Rome, we forgot all about "by your love for one another shall ye be known".
Luke2427, you asked who are we to judge Calvin. I'll tell you who we are, we are the ones who can see from the lens of history and scripture without all the cultural baggage Calvin had to deal with.
Google books people. A good many of Calvin's writings, including his letters to others are in the public domain and available for download as a pdf. I find his letters to be most enlightening on the man's character. So far, I find he was human. No more, no less. Jsut another human trying to work out his own salvation and well, "lead" others to follow his own conclusions. Lead being defined loosely enough to include force because Calvin had te rather high opinion of himself that other educated people of the time had. (because not many were educated, the ones who were logically assumed they were right)
Nothing like primary sources to give you the best information.
Luke2427, you asked who are we to judge Calvin. I'll tell you who we are, we are the ones who can see from the lens of history and scripture without all the cultural baggage Calvin had to deal with.
Google books people. A good many of Calvin's writings, including his letters to others are in the public domain and available for download as a pdf. I find his letters to be most enlightening on the man's character. So far, I find he was human. No more, no less. Jsut another human trying to work out his own salvation and well, "lead" others to follow his own conclusions. Lead being defined loosely enough to include force because Calvin had te rather high opinion of himself that other educated people of the time had. (because not many were educated, the ones who were logically assumed they were right)
Nothing like primary sources to give you the best information.
glfredrick
New Member
You have no clue about what I believe, and the sooner you stop reading the fundamentalist web sites that tell you what you think I believe, we'll all be better off. What the SCRIPTURES say is that God choses, not "fate."
Does God have the RIGHT to choose whom He will choose or not.
Answer yes or no.
Let me make sure I have this right (according to you). We must FIRST be saved, before God can save us. Is that not what you have said when you said, "We are only considered to be dead because of our rebellion of which we first have to cease in doing in order to be saved."?
"Augustinian nonsense?" I read about that on a fundamentalist web site. Made no sense at all, seeing as how Augustine was one of the Fathers of the Church that derived his theology from Scripture. If you said Thomism, I would be inclined to agree with you, but of course, they didn't talk about that on the site you visited to get your information, did they?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883147330Your conclusions is all you have left. You have no biblical evidence [/QUOTE]
Yup... Guess not. Whoops? What about these:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Eph 2:1 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:4-5 (KJV)8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Gal 1:1 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:11-12 (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1:15-16 (KJV)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, Gal 2:9 (KJV)
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:16 (KJV)
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Eph 3:20-21 (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11 (KJV)
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
Phil 2:21 (KJV)
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9 (KJV)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20-21 (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
I can go on naming verse after verse after verse, but perhaps the verse below is the one you should examine:
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Cor 1:10-13 (KJV)
You attempt to divide God's church with anger, rhetoric, and accusation. These are not God's tools! They are the tools of the enemy, the one called:
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:9-10 (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:1-6 (KJV)
glfredrick
New Member
Here...
This site will help those arguing against Calvin. :tonofbricks:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Calvinism/john_calvin_exposed.htm
This site will help those arguing against Calvin. :tonofbricks:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Doctrines/Calvinism/john_calvin_exposed.htm
Please remember: I'm not preaching at anybody, just offering thoughts for consideration. As someone pointed out, if one finger's pointing, there are 3 other fingers pointing the opposite direction.
Yes it does and if that choosing is unconditional as you believe then everyone has been chosen. Other wise there would be no reason for passing over some and preferring others. Unconditional means judgement wasn't involved so those who God passed over were rather unlucky Huh? If they were passed over and election is unconditional and sense God is not a respecter of men. There is only fate left nothing else exsit beyond that. It's fatalism plain and simple. You need to learn to live with the truth of that.
Are you going to fine me if I don't? lol.
It isn't a matter of a right. There is no one above God. It's a matter of His will that He has made known to us and that is God will save whom ever believes in His Son.
Not so that is your position not mine. Mine is that we must first believe, or have faith in Jesus Christ.
Nope that isn't what I meant that is what you believe. Your the one who believes the nonsense of Agustine. I believe that grace is always through faith. No faith, no grace.
"Augustinian nonsense?" I read about that on a fundamentalist web site. Made no sense at all, seeing as how Augustine was one of the Fathers of the Church that derived his theology from Scripture. If you said Thomism, I would be inclined to agree with you, but of course, they didn't talk about that on the site you visited to get your information, did they?
Agustine was the author of the Catholic faith. It was as corrupt then as it is now even though the Catholics switched faith in favor of universalism. Agustine was a liar and had no biblical understanding at all.
Well I certainly haven't seen anything impressive from you. Oh except your offer to continue the argument in Greek. LOl that would really keep the moderators busy.
Yup... Guess not. Whoops? What about these:
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Eph 2:1 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
Gal 1:1 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:11-12 (KJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1:15-16 (KJV)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, Gal 2:9 (KJV)
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:16 (KJV)
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. Eph 3:20-21 (KJV)
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11 (KJV)
21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
Phil 2:21 (KJV)
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9 (KJV)
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:20-21 (KJV)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2 (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
I can go on naming verse after verse after verse, but perhaps the verse below is the one you should examine:
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Cor 1:10-13 (KJV)
You attempt to divide God's church with anger, rhetoric, and accusation. These are not God's tools! They are the tools of the enemy, the one called:
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:9-10 (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Romans 2:1-6 (KJV)
The sad thing is, it's your contentions that I disagree with. I have none with the Bible.
MB
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glfredrick
New Member
I'll let your post stand as your condemnation...
quantumfaith
Active Member
glfredrick
New Member
Cmon GL, you are a much bigger person than this. But it is "entertaining".
I posted the site becasue it, or one similar (there are hundreds out there) seem to be the fount of information for some of the posts we've seen here on the board.
The people doing the posting are not coming up with that sort of vile nonesense on their own, they have help. Their writing style alone leads one to belive they are not well read enough to have derived this from true study of actual source material, so I look to web sites that "help them along." They are not hard to find.
Robert Snow
New Member
So, this is the heart of the matter, isn't it? Anyone who finds the many holes in Calvinism must have copied it from some other source. After all, we could not possibly be "well read enough to have derived this from true study of actual source material." Any you wonder why we characterize many Calvinist as being arrogant.
BTW, before you look down at us uneducated yokels, you might want to learn how to spell: because and nonsense and believe.
Sounds arrogant to me.
The truth never condemns it sustains us. I'm disappointed in you. You act as if you have all the answers but it's only an act.
MB
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
By the way it is Augustine, not "Agustine."
You lack of understanding of Church history is significant. Augustine was no liar and had more biblical understanding than either you or I.
It sounds to me like you might be parroting something someone else said about Augustine in their ignorance. There is no need to spread someone else's ignorance as your own. Study Augustine and you will find a sinner saved by grace who was a beautiful and unique gift to the church.
The Archangel
Robert Snow
New Member
Whether or not Augustine was correct or not depends on your point of view. I've never thought much of him or his theology. I read that Augustine was influenced with Plato's philosophy and brought a lot of theology he learned before becoming a Christian into his belief system. He also looked at the Old Testament as an allegory, something I do not believe.
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