The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[Thinkingstuff]

Look, I know that he organized what is now Catholicism. He came to prominence in the guise of conquering with the blessings of the cross. Yet that has been the way of Roman Catholicism, as their Bishops have blessed all those that went forth and conquered under the banner of the cross sense Constantine.

I'm sorry that is not entirely correct. Actual history does not suggest that. Later years true. But the first group of people leaving Rome into Europe were missionaries (peaceful and they were matyred by the Celts). You want to blame Constantine for RCC? You would be better advice to blame the Bishops rather than Constantine. He did not established the church he created a forum for discussion in Nicea and the bishops went from there. That is history.

 

[Palatka51]

They have always been that woman that has committed fornication with the Beast of Revelation. Riding the backs of the conquers of Europe. They talk the talk but be very aware even Satan can be seen as an angel of light. They never were the True Church of Christ.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

I'm sorry that is not entirely correct. Actual history does not suggest that. Later years true. But the first group of people leaving Rome into Europe were missionaries (peaceful and they were matyred by the Celts). You want to blame Constantine for RCC? You would be better advice to blame the Bishops rather than Constantine. He did not established the church he created a forum for discussion in Nicea and the bishops went from there. That is history.

Exactly. :thumbs:

 

[Doubting Thomas]

They have always been that woman that has committed fornication with the Beast of Revelation. Riding the backs of the conquers of Europe. They talk the talk but be very aware even Satan can be seen as an angel of light. They never were the True Church of Christ.

Who do you mean by "they"? Do you really mean that the bishops--many of whom had the physical scars from the great persecution of Diocletian--who met at Nicea in 325 never were in the True Church of Christ"? Or was it that they ceased to be in the Church when they met at Nicea to discuss the heresy of Arius? If not then, when exactly did they and their congregations cease to be the True Church of Christ?

 

[Palatka51]

Who do you mean by "they"? Do you really mean that the bishops--many of whom had the physical scars from the great persecution of Diocletian--who met at Nicea in 325 never were in the True Church of Christ"? Or was it that they ceased to be in the Church when they met at Nicea to discuss the heresy of Arius? If not then, when exactly did they and their congregations cease to be the True Church of Christ?

Don't you read Revelation? Just as soon as they used the sword of the state to bring any "heretic" or "infidel" into submission. Or even when it started to compromise with pagans and their feasts. That is when the Church ceased from being the True Church. It then had blood of the Saints on it's hands.

 

[peterotto]

Catholic theology is that we are saved by God’s grace. Not by our faith. Not by our works. God’s grace. Both faith and works are indeed necessary responses to the grace God offers.

Lets clarify what Grace means to a Catholic. It means performing a work to obtain the grace which is only dispensed through the Chruch.
For example, going to Mass, baptism, confression.......

The Jesus of the Catholics is also different than the one we read about in the Holy Scriptures. To a Catholic, Jesus did not pay for all of our sins. The Catholic must work off some of his own sins.

To a protestant, Jesus paid for ALL sins.

I ask you. Which Jesus is more powerful? The one that paid for ALL or the one the paid for some?


See the difference now?

 

[peterotto]

We often hear Catholics say that the Catholic church is the church that Jesus established 2000 years ago.

What is your reasoned response to this statement?

Thanks,

CA

The Apostle's Creed which they recite every Mass has the statement "One Holy Apostolic Church."
So they believe they came from the Apostles. Since it is from the Apostles, it must be from Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Don't you read Revelation? Just as soon as they used the sword of the state to bring any "heretic" or "infidel" into submission. Or even when it started to compromise with pagans and their feasts. That is when the Church ceased from being the True Church. It then had blood of the Saints on it's hands.

Your reading stuff into Revelations. To have a better understanding of Johns Revelations you should start studying apocalyptic literature. Compare with 1 Enoch and Daniel or The Assumption of Moses or The Apocalypse of Baruch. Jewish literature of this sort is very symbolic.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lets clarify what Grace means to a Catholic. It means performing a work to obtain the grace which is only dispensed through the Chruch.
For example, going to Mass, baptism, confression.......

The Jesus of the Catholics is also different than the one we read about in the Holy Scriptures. To a Catholic, Jesus did not pay for all of our sins. The Catholic must work off some of his own sins.

To a protestant, Jesus paid for ALL sins.

I ask you. Which Jesus is more powerful? The one that paid for ALL or the one the paid for some?


See the difference now?

I don't like defending Catholics but this statement is wrong. Catholics believe in salvation as an act of grace and that the requirement is belief. Now works are viewed as a maintenance of faith as opposed to our view which is works are a direct result of faith. In the end little difference. So your last questions is irrelevant because its assumption is wrong.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The Apostle's Creed which they recite every Mass has the statement "One Holy Apostolic Church."
So they believe they came from the Apostles. Since it is from the Apostles, it must be from Christ.

Yes they believe they faithfully maintain the Deposit of Faith Handed down by the Apostes. As far as Catholic the term was initially meant to distinguish acceptable practices and beliefs by all christian churches.

 

[Zenas]

The Apostle's Creed which they recite every Mass has the statement "One Holy Apostolic Church."
So they believe they came from the Apostles. Since it is from the Apostles, it must be from Christ.

Actually you are referring to the Nicene Creed. The Apostles Creed omits the word "Apostolic" and simply says, "I believe in the Holy Catholic Church."

 

[D28guy]

MrTumnus,

Alive in Christ posted...

Well, the saving gospel is that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.'

And you said...

"Since that truth is nowhere professed in the Bible, and words must be added to Scripture to produce it, there should be little surprise about this."

You are completly wrong. The truth that we are justified by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, is THUNDERED from the scriptures. Over and over and over and over again.

Here is one of the clearlest examples...

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

Alive said...

"The Catholic church and her apologists argue vehemently against that truth, claiming we must have acceptable works along with faith.:"

And you said...

"Catholic theology is that we are saved by God’s grace. Not by our faith. Not by our works. God’s grace. Both faith and works are indeed necessary responses to the grace God offers."

That is a lie. All that is required to be born of the Spirit and sealed permanently into Gods family is faith in Christ...and thats faith ALONE.

The changed life that follows is the evidence that one has been born of the Spirit, but it plays no part in our being justified.

"The Bible gives us a very clear definition of a faith without works – useless."

True. Because that one has never been born of the Spirit. They were an imposter....they never had faith in Christ alone. They simply mouthed some words, or maybe were just someone who *believed* in Jesus, meaning they just believed that He lived and died on a cross.

"So where again is believing that works are a necessary response to grace not part of the Gospel?"

In the scriptures. Its thundered from the scriptures. Over and over and over again.

Again...this is one of the clearest of the hundreds of times that faith alone is identified as the only requirement for justification...

"For it is my GRACE that you are saved, through FAITH, And that NOT OF YOURSELF. it is the GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest anyone shoud boast"

Mike

 

[Doubting Thomas]

You are completly wrong. The truth that we are justified by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, is THUNDERED from the scriptures. Over and over and over and over again.

Here is one of the clearlest examples...

Here we go....:tonofbricks:

 

[annsni]

The Bible gives us a very clear definition of a faith without works – useless. Can such a faith save? Not according to the Bible. Yet for some reason many want to take every verse that speaks about ‘believing’ and ‘faith’ in the Bible and apply to it the Biblical definition of a ‘useless’ faith.

Works is to faith what breathing is to being alive. In other words, if there are no works, then we must say that the faith is not alive. We cannot say that faith without works is useless because it's not faith if there are no works present. However, it's not the works that make us alive any more than making a corpse intake and exhale air makes it alive. It is the life that CAUSES the breathing/works to take place.

Scripture instead is very clear. I can have enough faith to move a mountain, but without love, I am nothing. In fact, we are told that love is greater than faith. How can this be, if it is faith alone that saves us? St. Paul says that the ONLY thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love, and that “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” St. John tells us that those who claim to know him but do not do what he commands is a liar, and has no truth.

Is love what saves us? Do you have Scripture to show us that?

Jesus himself tells us that every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. And he explains quite clearly that when he comes again in his glory to separate the sheep from the goats, his criteria is based upon how we treated Him, through the least of His brothers.

Because we can SEE the fruits of new life. Those who do not have life will be culled and those that do have life will be saved. It is not the works that do it but as I said before, it's the SIGN of life.

So where again is believing that works are a necessary response to grace not part of the Gospel?

Works is a response to the heart made alive. It's not part of becoming alive.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Works is to faith what breathing is to being alive. In other words, if there are no works, then we must say that the faith is not alive. We cannot say that faith without works is useless because it's not faith if there are no works present. However, it's not the works that make us alive any more than making a corpse intake and exhale air makes it alive. It is the life that CAUSES the breathing/works to take place.

Yet, James says faith without works is dead...not "non-existent". In James' illustration, workless faith is the corpse, something that exists but is not living. James clearly states that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone (ie faith by itself).

Is love what saves us? Do you have Scripture to show us that?

Galatians 5:6, what actually avails in Christ Jesus is "faith working through love". (If faith is not working through love, it's not availing for salvation...funny how Paul and James--and John and Peter for that matter--agree)

Because we can SEE the fruits of new life. Those who do not have life will be culled and those that do have life will be saved. It is not the works that do it but as I said before, it's the SIGN of life.

Yet, one must continually and actively abide in Christ if he wants to bear fruit and not be cut off as a branch (John 15), and he must "diligently add" some things (virtue..love) to his faith so that he doesn't become unfruitful in his knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:5-11) and so that an entrance will be supplied for him into Christ's heavenly kingdom.

 

[annsni]

Yet, James says faith without works is dead...not "non-existent". In James' illustration, workless faith is the corpse, something that exists but is not living. James clearly states that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone (ie faith by itself).

The word "justified" in this passage is clearly not saying that a man becomes "blameless" before God because that is not consistent with the Scriptures and we know that Scripture will not contradict itself. When we see the other verses that use this same Greek word, we see that it means another thing altogether - that it is SHOWING the righteousness. You cannot show righteousness by saying you have faith - it needs fruit to prove it.

An example:

Matthew 12:37 "for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."" (You're certainly not made righteous by just what you say)

Note that in this James passage, it says in verse 21 that Abraham was "justified by his works" when he obeyed God in being ready to sacrifice Isaac but in Genesis 15:6, we're told that "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Abraham was not made righteous by his obeying God in sacrificing Isaac because we're told that he was righteous BEFORE Isaac was even born.

So we know that being justified by our works doesn't mean that we're made righteous by our works but SHOWING our righteousness. Again, faith is the life, works is the breathing. Works is the evidence of faith.

Galatians 5:6, what actually avails in Christ Jesus is "faith working through love". (If faith is not working through love, it's not availing for salvation...funny how Paul and James--and John and Peter for that matter--agree)

Love doesn't save us. The passage says "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Of course our faith will work through love since love is a fruit of the Spirit.

Yet, one must continually and actively abide in Christ if he wants to bear fruit and not be cut off as a branch (John 15), and he must "diligently add" some things (virtue..love) to his faith so that he doesn't become unfruitful in his knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:5-11) and so that an entrance will be supplied for him into Christ's heavenly kingdom.

None of this comes from our own will but from the Spirit in us. Vs. 8 and 9 say "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins." This is not saying that we earn our salvation or that we even have a part in it. This is speaking of being effective for Christ - knowlegeable. If we do this, we will reap a great reward in the end upon our homegoing. But these works are not anything that save us. It is only the grace of God that saves us. Jesus' blood covers our unrighteousness and makes us righteous in God's sight.

 

[peterotto]

To a Catholic, Jesus did not pay for all of our sins. The Catholic must work off some of his own sins.

I don't like defending Catholics but this statement is wrong.

The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

From a Catholic Dictionary

EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that
one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.


Either Jesus made atonement for ALL the sins, or He did not. Vatican II clearly states Catholics must expiate("atone") for their sins. So my original statement was..............RIGHT ON!

 

[D28guy]

DT,

"Here we go....:tonofbricks:

Yep. Here we go again.

Having to make clear to folks...who SHOULD know better...what IS and what ISNT the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

Grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE.

Almighty Gods one saving gospel.

Having to take people by the hand...like 1st graders...and walk them through the ABC's again.

It gets wearisome, but when God tells you to do it, well....dont have much choice, do we?


Mike

 

[peterotto]

Catholics believe in salvation as an act of grace and that the requirement is belief. Now works are viewed as a maintenance of faith as opposed to our view which is works are a direct result of faith.

Council of Trent
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Nope requirement is faith plus works. Nice try Thinkingstuff. :tonofbricks:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here is some excellant information regarding the contrast between Gods saving gospel and the RCC's false and non saving gospel.

It also includes evidence that the Church of Rome has cursed anyone who holds to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

A link is at the bottom

"Because of the great emphasis on Sacred Tradition within the Catholic Church and because so many Roman Catholics appeal to the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, the Word of God is often placed after the Catholic Church itself in relation to authority. Because of this, many Catholics appeal to their works, in combination with the sacrifice of Christ as a means of being justified before God.

The Council of Trent expresses this plainly:

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).


Justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner where God declares the sinner righteous in His sight. This justification is based completely and solely on the work of Christ on the cross. We cannot earn justification or merit justification in any way. If we could, then Christ died needlessly. "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21). Because righteousness cannot come through the Law (through our efforts of merit), the Bible declares that we are justified before God by faith:


"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).


"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).


"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).


However, in Roman Catholicism, justification by faith is denied.


"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent).


Which are we to believe? The Roman Catholic Church or God's word?


Furthermore, the RCC states that justification is received not by faith, but by baptism. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph, 1992, that "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." This means that faith is not the instrument of obtaining justification; instead, it is an ordinance performed by a priest in the Roman Catholic Church.


Furthermore, baptism is only the initial grace along the road of justification. The Roman Catholic is to then maintain his position before God by his efforts.
"No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027).


The problem here is that the RCC is teaching us to "merit for ourselves and for others all the graces need to attain eternal life." You cannot merit grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Merit is, according to the CCC, par. 2006, "...the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment..." CCC 2006. This means that merit is something owed. By contrast, grace is something not owed. Therefore, the RCC is teaching contrary to God's word regarding grace and justification.


The sad result is that in Roman Catholicism, justification before God is a process that is maintained by the effort and works of the Roman Catholic. This is a very unfortunate teaching since it puts the unbearable burden of works righteousness upon the shoulders of the sinner.

By contrast, the Bible teaches that justification/salvation is by faith.


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).


"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

http:////www.carm.org/catholic/gospel.htm



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