The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[Doubting Thomas]

Ann,

I said..

Yet, James says faith without works is dead...not "non-existent". In James' illustration, workless faith is the corpse, something that exists but is not living. James clearly states that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone (ie faith by itself).

To which you replied...

The word "justified" in this passage is clearly not saying that a man becomes "blameless" before God because that is not consistent with the Scriptures and we know that Scripture will not contradict itself.

Scripture does not contradict itself and this passage is indeed saying that a man is justified (reckoned righteous) by works and not by faith alone. In fact, this is the only passage in the Bible with "justified", "works" and "faith alone" altogether--no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone". So you are right--Scripture doesn't contradict itself; it just contradicts the doctrine of "sola fide".

When we see the other verses that use this same Greek word, we see that it means another thing altogether - that it is SHOWING the righteousness. You cannot show righteousness by saying you have faith - it needs fruit to prove it.

That's actually a distortion of the meaning--the word justification means the same here as in the Pauline passages, "to be reckoned, or considered, righteous" in a juridical sense.

An example:

Matthew 12:37 "for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."" (You're certainly not made righteous by just what you say)

Christ is clear that in God's courtroom we will be reckoned righteous, or condemned, by what we say as this does indeed take place in the day of judgement (v.36). Of course these words occur in the context of the rest of lives--ie our thoughts and deeds--with good men bringing forth good things from their hearts and evil men bring forth evil things from theirs (v35), but God will most certainly take our words into consideration at His final judgement. And we know that those who have done good will have the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil the resurrection of condemnation.(John 5:28-29)

Note that in this James passage, it says in verse 21 that Abraham was "justified by his works" when he obeyed God in being ready to sacrifice Isaac but in Genesis 15:6, we're told that "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." Abraham was not made righteous by his obeying God in sacrificing Isaac because we're told that he was righteous BEFORE Isaac was even born.

Ahh...here you make the mistake of thinking 'justified' means "MADE righteous" when it really means to be "RECKONED righteous". You also assume that this 'reckoning (or considering) righteous only occurs once in a person's life, but that is certainly begging the question.

Same with this quote

So we know that being justified by our works doesn't mean that we're made righteous by our works...

Which is nothing I ever claimed since justifed means "reckoned righteous" rather than MADE righteous"

..but SHOWING our righteousness. Again, faith is the life, works is the breathing. Works is the evidence of faith.

Yet works doesn't come automatically without fail from faith; works are needed to COMPLETE (or "make perfect") faith (v.22), as there is such a thing as a dead workless faith (v.26).

I then said...

Galatians 5:6, what actually avails in Christ Jesus is "faith working through love". (If faith is not working through love, it's not availing for salvation...funny how Paul and James--and John and Peter for that matter--agree)

To which you replied..

Love doesn't save us.

We're certainly not going to ultimately be saved without it.

The passage says "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Of course our faith will work through love since love is a fruit of the Spirit.

But here again, love isn't something that automatically without fail comes from a one-time moment of faith, that we must keep His commandments to abide in His love (John 15:10) and show our love for Him (14:21,23) and we're warned by Christ that the love of many will grow cold (Matthew 24:12). Love is the last thing on the list of things Peter mentions we must "diligently add" to our faith so we don't become unfruitful. Which brings me to what I had said next:

Yet, one must continually and actively abide in Christ if he wants to bear fruit and not be cut off as a branch (John 15), and he must "diligently add" some things (virtue..love) to his faith so that he doesn't become unfruitful in his knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 1:5-11) and so that an entrance will be supplied for him into Christ's heavenly kingdom.

To which you replied...

None of this comes from our own will but from the Spirit in us.

Not quite. We are indeed only able to do this (ie "diligent add" these things) because God has first given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3) by His Spirit, but we must certainly use our will to diligently add these things to our faith. If our will wasn't involved the command would be superfluous.

Vs. 8 and 9 say "For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins."

Amen :thumbs:

This is not saying that we earn our salvation or that we even have a part in it.

To the contrary our part is to diligently add our things to our faith so we don't become unfruitful. Remember the unfruitful branches are cast out of the Vine and burned (John 15:2,6)

This is speaking of being effective for Christ - knowlegeable. If we do this, we will reap a great reward in the end upon our homegoing.

Yeah, the great reward is an entrance into the everlasting kingdom of Christ (2 Peter 1:11)--ie finally saved. This of course is consistent with Paul who said that eternal life will be rendered to those who patiently continue to do what is good (Romans 2:6-7)

But these works are not anything that save us. It is only the grace of God that saves us. Jesus' blood covers our unrighteousness and makes us righteous in God's sight.

But Christ's righteousness is only ours if we are in Him. And we must continue to keep His commandments if we are to continue to abide in Him (1 John 3:24, John 15:10). Our works are certainly the fruits of us being in Christ, but these fruits don't come passively and automatically, or else Christ wouldn't have to command us to abide in Him. We must abide in Him--He doesn't "abide in Him" for us. :smilewinkgrin: If we don't continue in His goodness standing (actively) by faith, we too will be cut off (Romans 11:20-22).

Yes, God is the one at "work IN" us to will and do for His good pleasure (and without Him we can do nothing--John 15:5), but we are the ones who must work OUT our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12-13)--He doesn't do the "working OUT" for us

 

[Alive in Christ]

Doubting Thomas...

You said...

"Scripture does not contradict itself and this passage is indeed saying that a man is justified (reckoned righteous) by works and not by faith alone. In fact, this is the only passage in the Bible with "justified", "works" and "faith alone" altogether--no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone"."

"no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone".""

Really? Lets take a look and see if that is true, shall we?

God says, in His scriptures...

""Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,...." (Rom. 3:28).


"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).


"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8).

The scriptures speak for themselves. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.


Sorry. God disagrees with you.


(Of course, those scriptures are the proverbial "tip of the iceberg".)




:godisgood:

 

[mrtumnus]

Very good post! :thumbs:

Glad you liked it.:wavey:

 

[mrtumnus]

Because they were praying near the statue to GOD and not to the 10 commandments. I grew up in the Catholic church and had 6 years of parochial school. Kneeling in front of Mary and praying to Mary is idolatry. Standing in front of a statue of Mary "crying" brings many thousands to see the icon and to cry, worship and adore it. Tell me that adoration of Mary doesn't happen in the Catholic church. That is idolatry.

Adoration of Mary would be considered to be wrong according to Catholic teachings. Has any individual Catholic ever worshipped Mary -- that I do not know. Only God can make that determination. Just as I cannot know if any individual Baptist has ever worshipped their car, or money, or any other idol. The reality is you cannot know about those individuals at the 10 commandments monument either. You make a judgment based upon your paradigm and make an assumption, for you also cannot see into their hearts. Individuals may not be worshipping the monument. Probably not. Most people, including Catholics know that these things are representation of something else. Yet, an individual may have been worshipping the attention they were getting for what they were doing and not God. Neither of us can know that nor can we judge.

One thing I have learned that growing up Catholic and being Catholic can be two very different things. Many people leave Catholic schools with little information about what the Catholic church actually believes or teaches. That is truly a shame. But if you left with the perception that Catholics worship Mary, then that is not correct.

 

[mrtumnus]

And the Amish are wrong.

Based on whose authority? They cite supporting Scripture as their authority. It is a literal interpretation of the command to make no likeness of anything. You are certainly entitled to an opinion, but this is stated in the Bible. The question of how to interpret, what to take literally, what to believe is allegory or metaphorical – all part of interpretation which leads individuals to many different conclusions. Not all can be true. Perhaps in this case they are the ones who are right. Just as they refuse to take an oath when in court. Scripture plainly says not to, so they don’t. Others ignore that.

 

[mrtumnus]

When you see the Baptist bowing down and praying in front of it, consecrating it and adoring it as if it were holy, then we have something to talk about. It's an object and nothing more. When thousands upon thousands of Baptists come from around the world to see the statue of baby Jesus bleeding, then we have something to talk about. It will never happen.

Objects certainly can be more than just objects. An American flag for example. Do you pledge allegiance to it? Get upset if somebody chooses to desecrate it? Respect it? Basically it’s an object – a piece of material.

Venerating an object is about understanding what the object or symbol represents, and giving appropriate honor to what it represents, not the object itself. And I would never accuse someone of worshipping the American flag simply because they choose to stand when it passes by in a parade and place their hand over their heart and recite a few words. Or have a specific ritual for folding it and presenting it to a dead soldier's family. Or flying it a certain way during a time of tragedy. I wouldn't consider it worship even when they promise loyalty to a piece of cloth.

How can you tell if someone is simply venerating the flag or worshipping it? Pretty much have to take their word for it or make an assumption rooted in your own perception.

 

[mrtumnus]

The difference is that my friend is not dead and can hear me. If the dead can hear the prayers of those on earth, they are omnipresent and omniscient and thus God.

Being able to hear the prayers of others does not meet my definition of omnipresence and omniscience. I’m actually curious how you think you’re going to hear at all after you are dead? You will have no ears. Does that mean until you get your resurrected body you will be in a silent void, with no communication? If not, why would you assume that however you will hear would have the same limitations as your current body?

We know that in heaven we shall be able to participate in the divine nature of God. This does not mean we are omnipresent or omniscient. It should certainly mean that we will have spiritual gifts we currently do not have. We are participating in the nature of the One who is omniscient, omnipresent and hears all. Perhaps he chooses to share through our union to His nature?

To believe that we have no need of those who are alive in Christ after the death of their bodies and they no longer care or are concerned for us indicates a belief that we are separated from the body of Christ at death. Yet Scripture tells us that nothing, even death can separate us from the love of Christ

 

[mrtumnus]

Lets clarify what Grace means to a Catholic. It means performing a work to obtain the grace which is only dispensed through the Chruch.
For example, going to Mass, baptism, confression.......

The Jesus of the Catholics is also different than the one we read about in the Holy Scriptures. To a Catholic, Jesus did not pay for all of our sins. The Catholic must work off some of his own sins.

To a protestant, Jesus paid for ALL sins.

I ask you. Which Jesus is more powerful? The one that paid for ALL or the one the paid for some?


See the difference now?

Let's really clarify what grace means to a Catholic.

What grace means to a Catholic is first and foremost a participation in the life of the Trinity. It is the free and undeserved help God grants to enable us to respond to his call.

Grace comes in many forms and can be administered in many ways which indeed includes the Sacraments – a fount of grace flowing through the church. Why would one not believe this is the main purpose of the church? And yet, the grace of God is in no way limited or bound. We are all called to administer grace to each other as well, through our witness to our faith, and our prayer and encouragement for each other, and our works of mercy. Catholics do not believe the sacraments are the ONLY way grace is received or that the church is the SOLE dispenser of grace.

Catholics also believe that Jesus paid for all of our sins. No more work to be done there at all. Yet forgiveness of sins does not mean removal of the consequences. Ask anyone who fornicated and ended up with a baby. The damage is done. The wages of sin is death. We still die, even though our sins are forgiven. If your child carelessly breaks the neighbor’s window do you tell him that there is no need to make reparation because Jesus paid the debt for his sin? Through the process of sanctification the Holy Spirit guides us in making reparation to heal our soul from the consequences of our sin.

 

[mrtumnus]

Works is to faith what breathing is to being alive. In other words, if there are no works, then we must say that the faith is not alive. We cannot say that faith without works is useless because it's not faith if there are no works present. However, it's not the works that make us alive any more than making a corpse intake and exhale air makes it alive. It is the life that CAUSES the breathing/works to take place.

Well, James is who said it was useless, not me. And I agree that works don’t make us alive. But is it our faith that makes us alive? Or is it God’s grace? If it is God’s grace (not our faith) and if the above red is true, then how can one say that faith alone is necessary for salvation and not works? I actually don’t disagree with your statement. The problem is, when people place all the focus on “faith alone” and profess that works are not necessary – they miss the point you make in the highlighted above. Some will go so far as to say you are incorrect – a saving faith can indeed be one without works. It also takes the message of salvation away from its true source – God’s grace and places it on our faith.

 

[mrtumnus]

Is love what saves us? Do you have Scripture to show us that?

I would never say we are saved by our love. I will say consistently that we are saved by God’s grace. Nothing else.

But I certainly think as good of a case can be made for love as ‘faith alone’. Jesus gives us two commandments – to love the Lord God with our whole heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves. St. John tells us that those who claim to know Christ but do not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Can a person be saved if the truth is not in him?

 

[mrtumnus]

Works is a response to the heart made alive. It's not part of becoming alive.

As is faith, is it not? Or do you profess that we become alive by our faith?

 

[webdog]

Being able to hear the prayers of others does not meet my definition of omnipresence and omniscience. I’m actually curious how you think you’re going to hear at all after you are dead? You will have no ears. Does that mean until you get your resurrected body you will be in a silent void, with no communication? If not, why would you assume that however you will hear would have the same limitations as your current body?

Where does Scripture state we won't have ears

Jesus looked like Jesus after His resurrection...and the Bible says our bodies will be like His.

 

[mrtumnus]

MrTumnus,

Alive in Christ posted...

Quote:
Well, the saving gospel is that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.'



And you said...

Quote:
"Since that truth is nowhere professed in the Bible, and words must be added to Scripture to produce it, there should be little surprise about this."


You are completly wrong. The truth that we are justified by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, is THUNDERED from the scriptures. Over and over and over and over again.

Here is one of the clearlest examples...

Quote:
"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast."

First of all, if the correlation is that clear, why do you have to add the word “alone” to get your thunder?

Second, I believe this is the only Scripture that indicates that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Most simply say by grace. It explicitly does not say faith ‘alone’. If it did, that would mean the only way grace can work in our lives is through faith. While it is certainly a primary vehicle for grace – it is not and cannot be the only one. Even the scriptures that speak of believing in Christ (can you believe in Christ without works?) – note that the ability to believe itself is actually a work of grace. Grace must be working before we can even have faith – so obviously not all grace comes through faith.

The other reason that “faith alone” is not the singular vehicle for grace is that those who die as infants or young children do not have the intellect for faith. So one must conclude that either 1) they are all damned to hell because they had no way to receive the grace of salvation or 2) they do not need a Savior and therefore do not require saving grace or 3) there is/are ways for grace to be received other than by faith.

 

[mrtumnus]

Where does Scripture state we won't have ears

Jesus looked like Jesus after His resurrection...and the Bible says our bodies will be like His.

Because to my knowledge we do not get those resurrected bodies until the second coming of Christ? Until then our bodies are in the grave, waiting to be united with our spirits.

 

[mrtumnus]

Alive said...

Quote:
"The Catholic church and her apologists argue vehemently against that truth, claiming we must have acceptable works along with faith.:"



And you said...

Quote:
"Catholic theology is that we are saved by God’s grace. Not by our faith. Not by our works. God’s grace. Both faith and works are indeed necessary responses to the grace God offers."


That is a lie. All that is required to be born of the Spirit and sealed permanently into Gods family is faith in Christ...and thats faith ALONE.

It is a lie that we are saved by God’s grace? Your position is that you are saved by your own faith?

 

[mrtumnus]

Quote:
"The Bible gives us a very clear definition of a faith without works – useless."



True. Because that one has never been born of the Spirit. They were an imposter....they never had faith in Christ alone. They simply mouthed some words, or maybe were just someone who *believed* in Jesus, meaning they just believed that He lived and died on a cross.

So now you are saying that if you don’t have works you really aren’t a believer? Let me see if I have this logic right. You are saved by your faith. If you don’t have works, your faith is not real. But works play absolutely no role in your being saved.

How many works does it take to make your faith real?

 

[mrtumnus]

duplicate post

 

[mrtumnus]

duplicate post

 

[mrtumnus]

In the scriptures. Its thundered from the scriptures. Over and over and over again.

Again...this is one of the clearest of the hundreds of times that faith alone is identified as the only requirement for justification...




Mike

No need to shout.

The only place that "faith alone" is thundered from the Scriptures is when James tells us it is useless. Other than that, you have to add the word "alone" throughout to prove your point. Isn't there something about not adding to the words of Scripture?

In addition, you've said that faith is only real if it includes works. So basically, when you say that we are saved by faith alone (no works), aren't you saying that we are saved by a faith that isn't real?

 

[mrtumnus]

The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

From a Catholic Dictionary

EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that
one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.


Either Jesus made atonement for ALL the sins, or He did not. Vatican II clearly states Catholics must expiate("atone") for their sins. So my original statement was..............RIGHT ON!

Can you provide the actual Vatican 2 document this is from? I just looked through the 16 I know of and can't find this quote.