The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[mrtumnus]

Council of Trent
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Nope requirement is faith plus works. Nice try Thinkingstuff. :tonofbricks:

That Canon IX, vintage St. James, isn’t it? :thumbs:

Have you actually read the entire Council of Trent? Here’s some of my favorites:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

 

[mrtumnus]

Council of Trent
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Nope requirement is faith plus works. Nice try Thinkingstuff. :tonofbricks:

That Canon IX, vintage St. James, isn’t it?

Have you actually read the entire Council of Trent? Here’s some of my favorites:

And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.

CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

 

[mrtumnus]

Hmm, my last two attempts to post have disappeared.:BangHead:

 

[D28guy]

MrTumnus

After I posted this...

The truth that we are justified by grace alone, though faith alone, in Christ alone, is THUNDERED from the scriptures. Over and over and over and over again."

You said...

First of all, if the correlation is that clear, why do you have to add the word "alone" to get your thunder?"

Because that is what Gods word is teaching us in that passage, and all the others that have been posted that teach the same thing. God is clear that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. God specifically tells us that if we add works to it, we turn it into a false gospel.

" knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law...

(Doing good. Being good. Doing good works, etc)

"...but by faith in Jesus Christ,...

Faith alone

"...even we have believed in Christ Jesus...

Faith alone

"...that we might be justifiedby faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law..."

Faith alone.

"For by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified"

If we add any "doing" or "being good" to the gospel, God tells us we will not be justified...

"16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

You again...

" Second, I believe this is the only Scripture that indicates that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Most simply say by grace. It explicitly does not say faith ‘alone’."

It doesnt have to. There is all the other passages, along with this one that make the "alone" part so crystal clear.

"The other reason that "faith alone" is not the singular vehicle for grace is that those who die as infants or young children do not have the intellect for faith. So one must conclude that either 1) they are all damned to hell because they had no way to receive the grace of salvation or 2) they do not need a Savior and therefore do not require saving grace or 3) there is/are ways for grace to be received other than by faith."

Little babies are not invloved in our discussion at all. They are completly irrelavent to this discussion. Concerning little babies, the Creator of Heaven and eath will do what is right.

You said...

"Both faith and works are indeed necessary responses to the grace God offers."

And I said...

" That is a lie. All that is required to be born of the Spirit and sealed permanently into Gods family is faith in Christ...and thats faith ALONE."

And you said...

It is a lie that we are saved by God’s grace?"

No, it is a lie that we must have acceptable works aded to our faith to be justified.

"Your position is that you are saved by your own faith?"

God grants us the gift of faith. And it is faith in Christ ALONE that causes us to be justified in God sight. Faith alone.

You said...

""The Bible gives us a very clear definition of a faith without works – useless.""

And I reponded...

"True. Because that one has never been born of the Spirit. They were an imposter....they never had faith in Christ alone. They simply mouthed some words, or maybe were just someone who *believed* in Jesus, meaning they just believed that He lived and died on a cross."

And you now say...

"So now you are saying that if you don’t have works you really aren’t a believer?"

When someone is born again, they are justified through faith alone. They dont have to cast all sin out of their life (as if they could) or promise God they will be really really good from now on. They are justified in Gods eyes because at the moment of saving Faith alone, Christs rightiousness in imputed to them. For the rest of their life God will reckon Christs sinlessness to that christian.

Consquently, from that moment on the Holy Spirit will be responsible for ministering the life of Jesus Christ in and through that new born child of God. Their life witll continue to change for the better for the rest of their earthly life. But that has nothing to do with them being saved, or staying saved. The person offered nothing but faith alone, for that is all God will accept. The new life is simply evidence that a "new creation" has come into being.

It is impossible for that new life to not become obvious. If someone says that have become a christian, but nothng is changing...day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year...nothing is changing...that that is evidence that no new birth has taken place.

"Let me see if I have this logic right...."

You probably wont, but go ahead.

"You are saved by your faith. If you don’t have works, your faith is not real. But works play absolutely no role in your being saved."

Whoa!

Mr Tumnus...I'm proud of you. I do believe you are GETTING it!

"How many works does it take to make your faith real?

Its not an issue. They will accumulate accordingly...just like a baby will grow and grow in due time.

Mike

 

[Matt Black]

Look, I know that he organized what is now Catholicism. He came to prominence in the guise of conquering with the blessings of the cross. Yet that has been the way of Roman Catholicism, as their Bishops have blessed all those that went forth and conquered under the banner of the cross sense Constantine.

Constantine organised Catholicism?:laugh: You need to learn some history.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Alive in Christ,

I had said...

Scripture does not contradict itself and this passage is indeed saying that a man is justified (reckoned righteous) by works and not by faith alone. In fact, this is the only passage in the Bible with "justified", "works" and "faith alone" altogether--no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone"."

no where does it state that "so you see a man is justified by faith alone".

To which you replied...

Really? Lets take a look and see if that is true, shall we?

God says, in His scriptures...


Quote:
""Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law,...." (Rom. 3:28).


"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).


"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).


"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8).

The scriptures speak for themselves. We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Which of those verses exactly says we are justified by faith ALONE? None that I can see. (Here's a hint: when you consider Romans 3:28 in its context you'll realize that "deeds of the law" does NOT equal all "works", particularly the works of love that follow after one is initially united to Christ)

Sorry. God disagrees with you.

Sorry, but to the contrary God disagrees with "sola fide", because in James it clearly states:
"You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24

(Of course, those scriptures are the proverbial "tip of the iceberg".)

And the "iceberg" always melts in the light of the whole counsel of God's truth.

 

[mrtumnus]

Sorry for the long duplicate post, but last night things stopped showing up, and now I can't edit it.:tonofbricks:

 

[mrtumnus]

Here is some excellant information regarding the contrast between Gods saving gospel and the RCC's false and non saving gospel.

It also includes evidence that the Church of Rome has cursed anyone who holds to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

A link is at the bottom

Furthermore, baptism is only the initial grace along the road of justification. The Roman Catholic is to then maintain his position before God by his efforts.
"No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027).


The problem here is that the RCC is teaching us to "merit for ourselves and for others all the graces need to attain eternal life." You cannot merit grace. Grace is unmerited favor. Merit is, according to the CCC, par. 2006, "...the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment..." CCC 2006. This means that merit is something owed. By contrast, grace is something not owed. Therefore, the RCC is teaching contrary to God's word regarding grace and justification.


http:////www.carm.org/catholic/gospel.htm



:godisgood:

Truthfully I have come to the conclusion that when Catholics/Protestants speak about salvation, they don’t always mean the same thing. For example, the SBC Statement of Faith says this:

"In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification."

I asked a Southern Baptist minister one time – how come you guys say you’ve been “saved” when you actually mean you’ve been regenerated and justified? Because I don’t think you mean you’ve been sanctified and glorified, do you? He said no, he meant regenerated and justified, but that was too hard to say.

When Catholics speak of salvation, they are indeed speaking about the broadest sense. All the components. We are truly saved when we are not only born again and justified, but sanctified and glorified.

Christ and the cross are the source of all grace. The question becomes – how is grace applied? Is it a one-time event? Scripture would say no. Do we grow in grace? Are there things we can do to grow in grace? Scripture says yes. To believe there is nothing that we do in the administering of grace is not Scriptural. Is this "meriting" grace? Not in the sense that we deserve grace to be available. Yes in the sense that we by our actions can cause it to be applied and increased.

2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(There are many of these greetings in Scripture. Why pretend you believe you can request grace for someone if you believe you really can’t?)

1 Peter 4:10 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
(What happens if people fail to heed this command? No impact? Or are we really to "faithfully administer grace"?)

2 Corinthians 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
(Can someone pray for another’s perfection without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
(Can someone pray for someone to receive the Holy Spirit without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Colossians 1 9:10 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
(You can pray for someone to be filled with knowledge and understanding, without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
(You can pray for someone’s heart to be enlightened without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 3 14:19 For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
(Which “glorious riches” are we speaking of other than grace? Is being “filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” anything other than grace?)

James 4 6:10 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
(Yes, grace can definitely be increased by something we do).


Luke 22 39:46 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. "Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."
(How does prayer prevent us from falling into temptation if not by pouring forth grace?)

 

[mrtumnus]

Here is some excellant information regarding the contrast between Gods saving gospel and the RCC's false and non saving gospel.

It also includes evidence that the Church of Rome has cursed anyone who holds to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

A link is at the bottom

Quote:


However, in Roman Catholicism, justification by faith is denied.


"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent).


Which are we to believe? The Roman Catholic Church or God's word?


Furthermore, the RCC states that justification is received not by faith, but by baptism. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph, 1992, that "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." This means that faith is not the instrument of obtaining justification; instead, it is an ordinance performed by a priest in the Roman Catholic Church.






http:////www.carm.org/catholic/gospel.htm



:godisgood:

Wouldn't it be nice if we were looking at all of God's word? Or even all of the Council of Trent?

The Catholic church does not deny justification by faith. It denies justification by faith "alone". Big difference. Again, if the only way to be justified were truly by faith "alone" infants would be doomed to hell, or else one must profess they do not need a Savior.

Regarding Baptism, for adults a pre-requisite is indeed faith. We simply are not justified by faith "alone". Catholics would simply say that Jesus does not command us to do empty rituals void of grace just "for show". He was somewhat against that concept, remember? The Bible says that we are baptized “into Christ”. Can one really be justified without being in Christ?

And just FYI – baptism does not have to be performed by a priest. Anyone can baptize somebody. Perfectly valid.

I actually heard kind of a cute story about that on a Catholic radio show one day. The caller said she had been taking her 4-year old niece with her to Mass, where the majority of infant baptisms occur these days. One night she was taking a bath and took a cup of water and poured it over her head and said "I baptize ME in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". The woman wanted to know if it was a valid baptism. The response was -- most likely -- yes. Jesus did say not to prevent the little children from coming to Him.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Truthfully I have come to the conclusion that when Catholics/Protestants speak about salvation, they don’t always mean the same thing. For example, the SBC Statement of Faith says this:

"In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification."

I asked a Southern Baptist minister one time – how come you guys say you’ve been “saved” when you actually mean you’ve been regenerated and justified? Because I don’t think you mean you’ve been sanctified and glorified, do you? He said no, he meant regenerated and justified, but that was too hard to say.

When Catholics speak of salvation, they are indeed speaking about the broadest sense. All the components. We are truly saved when we are not only born again and justified, but sanctified and glorified.

Christ and the cross are the source of all grace. The question becomes – how is grace applied? Is it a one-time event? Scripture would say no. Do we grow in grace? Are there things we can do to grow in grace? Scripture says yes. To believe there is nothing that we do in the administering of grace is not Scriptural. Is this "meriting" grace? Not in the sense that we deserve grace to be available. Yes in the sense that we by our actions can cause it to be applied and increased.

2 Corinthians 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(There are many of these greetings in Scripture. Why pretend you believe you can request grace for someone if you believe you really can’t?)

1 Peter 4:10 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
(What happens if people fail to heed this command? No impact? Or are we really to "faithfully administer grace"?)

2 Corinthians 13:9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection.
(Can someone pray for another’s perfection without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit
(Can someone pray for someone to receive the Holy Spirit without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Colossians 1 9:10 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
(You can pray for someone to be filled with knowledge and understanding, without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
(You can pray for someone’s heart to be enlightened without believing grace will be poured forth?)

Ephesians 3 14:19 For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
(Which “glorious riches” are we speaking of other than grace? Is being “filled to the measure of all the fullness of God” anything other than grace?)

James 4 6:10 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
(Yes, grace can definitely be increased by something we do).


Luke 22 39:46 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground. When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. "Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."
(How does prayer prevent us from falling into temptation if not by pouring forth grace?)

Another very good post, particularly contrasting the ways different groups of Christians (in this case Baptists and Catholics) talk about "salvation" (ie "been saved" etc.)

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Council of Trent
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

Nope requirement is faith plus works. Nice try Thinkingstuff. :tonofbricks:

Actually read to understand what is actually said. Their statement in this section about faith alone is predicated by "nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification" So James said that "Faith without works are dead" Works are a key element. Catholics view this as maintenance of their Faith and we view it as a result of Faith. Justification will not land on either Catholics or Protestants if not resultant on some issue of works. In other words I can't say I believe and then be Justified when my life is devoid of righteousness. Ie. fornication, idolatry, murder, ect... We would say (OSAS) you were never saved. Catholics are saying something similar here. You cant say I believe and not repent and change your life. No justification in this circumstance. BTW I'll get to you on post 37.

 

[peterotto]

Catholics also believe that Jesus paid for all of our sins. No more work to be done there at all. Yet forgiveness of sins does not mean removal of the consequences.

No they do not! To a Roman Catholic they must pay for some of their sins. For example, that is what purgatory/indulgence does. Either Christ paid for them all, or not. To a Catholic, He did not. If Christ paid for all of our sins, then why do the Catholic go to purgatory to pay for them there? It is obvious why. To a Roman Catholic, Christ did not pay for all of their sins.

The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

From a Catholic Bible

Romans 3:24-25 They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,

1John 4:10 In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as expiation for our sins.

Can you provide the actual Vatican 2 document this is from? I just looked through the 16 I know of and can't find this quote.

I looked at the vatican website, but it appears the Vatican II council book was not put into web form. Or I have not found it, yet.
Here is a link to Vatican of another document showing people must expiate their own sins.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p..._apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."


And what is expiation? Read it from the Catholic Dictionary.

EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.

 

[peterotto]

The Catholic church does not deny justification by faith. It denies justification by faith "alone". Big difference.

Then you agree, it is by faith plus works. Enough said, lets move on.

 

[peterotto]

So James said that "Faith without works are dead" Works are a key element. Catholics view this as maintenance of their Faith and we view it as a result of Faith.

That would be a negitive Sir. To a Roman Catholic, to be justified it is by faith plus works. For example they must go to Mass every Sunday otherwise they commit a mortal sin and is in grave danger of ending up in hell if they die before confession on Tuesday night.

 

[grace56]

mrtumnas. wow you have really posted some interesting stuff and it makes sense. Lately I've been listening to tapes from Scott Hahn, and Jeff Cavins both former protestant pastors who are now fully Catholic. They explain this better then anyone I've ever heard. I find it interesting how God is using them and more like them to rebuild His Church. More and more Catholics are falling in love with Scriptures many for the first time through their teachings.

 

[Amy.G]

mrtumnas. wow you have really posted some interesting stuff and it makes sense. Lately I've been listening to tapes from Scott Hahn, and Jeff Cavins both former protestant pastors who are now fully Catholic. They explain this better then anyone I've ever heard. I find it interesting how God is using them and more like them to rebuild His Church. More and more Catholics are falling in love with Scriptures many for the first time through their teachings.

God help us. :tear:

 

[annsni]

Adoration of Mary would be considered to be wrong according to Catholic teachings. Has any individual Catholic ever worshipped Mary -- that I do not know. Only God can make that determination. Just as I cannot know if any individual Baptist has ever worshipped their car, or money, or any other idol. The reality is you cannot know about those individuals at the 10 commandments monument either. You make a judgment based upon your paradigm and make an assumption, for you also cannot see into their hearts. Individuals may not be worshipping the monument. Probably not. Most people, including Catholics know that these things are representation of something else. Yet, an individual may have been worshipping the attention they were getting for what they were doing and not God. Neither of us can know that nor can we judge.

One thing I have learned that growing up Catholic and being Catholic can be two very different things. Many people leave Catholic schools with little information about what the Catholic church actually believes or teaches. That is truly a shame. But if you left with the perception that Catholics worship Mary, then that is not correct.

LOL - Well then you have been quite cloistered in your Catholic upbringing. Not only did I grow up Catholic and attend Catholic school, one of my best friends is a Cantor and her husband is a deacon. We've had quite a few many talks as well as speaking with her father who is also a deacon.

Let's take a look at one prayer that is familiar to all Catholics - the Salve Regina:

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

Pope John Paul II said "the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection."

If that's not worship, then I don't know what is.

Psalm 148:14 "Let them praise the name of the LORD,for his name alone is exalted; his majesty is above earth and heaven."

 

[annsni]

Objects certainly can be more than just objects. An American flag for example. Do you pledge allegiance to it? Get upset if somebody chooses to desecrate it? Respect it? Basically it’s an object – a piece of material.

Venerating an object is about understanding what the object or symbol represents, and giving appropriate honor to what it represents, not the object itself. And I would never accuse someone of worshipping the American flag simply because they choose to stand when it passes by in a parade and place their hand over their heart and recite a few words. Or have a specific ritual for folding it and presenting it to a dead soldier's family. Or flying it a certain way during a time of tragedy. I wouldn't consider it worship even when they promise loyalty to a piece of cloth.

How can you tell if someone is simply venerating the flag or worshipping it? Pretty much have to take their word for it or make an assumption rooted in your own perception.

The American flag cannot get us to heaven. It cannot save us. It's an object. If it is damaged, it's material. My country still stands. It means nothing.

Let's see what "power" saying the Rosary has:

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify them- selves by this means.
5. The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
12. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
14. All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ
15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.

(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan)
Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes DD Archbishop of New York

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That would be a negitive Sir. To a Roman Catholic, to be justified it is by faith plus works. For example they must go to Mass every Sunday otherwise they commit a mortal sin and is in grave danger of ending up in hell if they die before confession on Tuesday night.

Evidence sir.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God’s holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

From a Catholic Dictionary

EXPIATION. Atonement for some wrongdoing. It implies an attempt to undo the wrong that
one has done, by suffering a penalty, by performing some penance, or by making reparation or redress.


Either Jesus made atonement for ALL the sins, or He did not. Vatican II clearly states Catholics must expiate("atone") for their sins. So my original statement was..............RIGHT ON!

I want to find the section for this quote. Which book of the II Vatican council are you quoting from or are you quoting from the Catechism?