The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[peterotto]

Evidence sir.

Coucil of Trent

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"


Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 4 Session 7.
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."




It is pretty simple. Sorry to hear you have a hard time understanding the Theology of Rome. Justify, Sanctification, and Grace have totally different meanings to how the Protestant defines them. So I do my best to simplify what they are saying.
To receive the grace from the sacraments one must do works to get it. For example, 'There is no salvation outside the Church'. Here, Rome is saying you must join the Church to get justified. Then you need to do good works and expiate your sins because faith in Jesus ALONE does not absolve all of your sins.......I have to go now.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Coucil of Trent

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"


Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 4 Session 7.
"If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that without them or without the desire of them men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification, though all are not necessary for each one, let him be anathema."




It is pretty simple. Sorry to hear you have a hard time understanding the Theology of Rome. Justify, Sanctification, and Grace have totally different meanings to how the Protestant defines them. So I do my best to simplify what they are saying.
To receive the grace from the sacraments one must do works to get it. For example, 'There is no salvation outside the Church'. Here, Rome is saying you must join the Church to get justified. Then you need to do good works and expiate your sins because faith in Jesus ALONE does not absolve all of your sins.......I have to go now.

thats not the evidence I was looking for. Your statement about mass and mortal sin and hell if no confession by tuesday. These statements as are most proclimations in the council of Trent are directed at Protestants and non catholics.

 

[peterotto]

I want to find the section for this quote. Which book of the II Vatican council are you quoting from or are you quoting from the Catechism?

Gee whiz dude.

Well I can not find a book version of the Vatican II on the web.
What I have found is a link at the Vatican website that says pretty much the same thing.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p..._apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death"

To a Roman Catholic, Jesus DID NOT pay for ALL of their sins. They must work some of it off.

 

[mrtumnus]

If we add any "doing" or "being good" to the gospel, God tells us we will not be justified...

Quote:
"16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Question – are you equating works of the law to be the same as works of grace? Keeping the OT law as opposed to responding to the nudge of grace? Do you believe there is no difference between the two?

If you will notice when James actually does use the term “faith alone” to explain how important deeds are – he isn’t talking about “works of the law”, or keeping the OT law. The example he gives is providing food and clothing for someone who is in need. Responding to the call of grace and showing our faith by what we do. Not "works of the law".

 

[mrtumnus]

Quote by me:
" Second, I believe this is the only Scripture that indicates that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Most simply say by grace. It explicitly does not say faith ‘alone’."

You said:
It doesnt have to. There is all the other passages, along with this one that make the "alone" part so crystal clear.

Evidently not or we wouldn't be talking about it.

Nor would James contradict it.

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
"The other reason that "faith alone" is not the singular vehicle for grace is that those who die as infants or young children do not have the intellect for faith. So one must conclude that either 1) they are all damned to hell because they had no way to receive the grace of salvation or 2) they do not need a Savior and therefore do not require saving grace or 3) there is/are ways for grace to be received other than by faith."

You said:
Little babies are not invloved in our discussion at all. They are completly irrelavent to this discussion. Concerning little babies, the Creator of Heaven and eath will do what is right.

The Creator of Heaven and earth will do what is right by us all, not just babies.:thumbs:

But they are absolutely relevant to our discussion. Now you are not only adding “alone” to the text, you’re adding “regarding adults only”. Either salvation is limited by grace through “faith alone” or it isn’t.

My conclusion would be it isn't. Grace is not limited to "faith alone" as its only vehicle. Grace is what saves us -- the presence of Christ living within us is our justification.

 

[mrtumnus]

God grants us the gift of faith. And it is faith in Christ ALONE that causes us to be justified in God sight. Faith alone.

Christ ALONE I can buy just fine. It’s the thought that our faith is what justifies us instead of God’s grace, and the only vehicle for God’s grace is “faith alone” or that faith is the only response to grace that is necessary that I don’t quite agree with. The presence of grace, or Christ living within us being what justifies us -- Christ alone -- :thumbs:

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
"So now you are saying that if you don’t have works you really aren’t a believer?"


You said:
When someone is born again, they are justified through faith alone. They dont have to cast all sin out of their life (as if they could) or promise God they will be really really good from now on. They are justified in Gods eyes because at the moment of saving Faith alone, Christs rightiousness in imputed to them. For the rest of their life God will reckon Christs sinlessness to that christian.

Consquently, from that moment on the Holy Spirit will be responsible for ministering the life of Jesus Christ in and through that new born child of God. Their life witll continue to change for the better for the rest of their earthly life. But that has nothing to do with them being saved, or staying saved. The person offered nothing but faith alone, for that is all God will accept. The new life is simply evidence that a "new creation" has come into being.

It is impossible for that new life to not become obvious. If someone says that have become a christian, but nothng is changing...day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year...nothing is changing...that that is evidence that no new birth has taken place.

First of all, you are working under an assumption of OSAS, which isn’t a concept even the entire Baptist world accepts I believe?

Second – you don’t think it’s possible to cast all sin from your life? Whatever happened to “I can do everything through him who gives me strength”? A battle – for sure. A lifelong battle – you bet. But a battle that through the power of the Holy Spirit cannot be won – not at all.

Jesus commanded us to "Be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect". Do you think he didn't mean it?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

We are now speaking of the ‘sanctification’ component of salvation rather than justification I believe. The Holy Spirit works in us, with the cooperation of our free will and intellect. We continually surrender. We continually seek more grace. We continually resist temptation. This is participatory. We are commanded to resist evil and to submit ourselves to God, to learn to control ourselves and to live a holy life.

The reason that nothing happens to some is not necessarily that they did not receive the gift. It can also be that they have stuffed it in a back closet and aren’t choosing to use it. They are the man who received one talent and buried it in the ground.

Also, what about the person who has lots of fruit and new growth…..for a while? And then the change and growth stops. Was that person ever really reborn?

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
"You are saved by your faith. If you don’t have works, your faith is not real. But works play absolutely no role in your being saved."

You said:

Whoa!

Mr Tumnus...I'm proud of you. I do believe you are GETTING it!

Oh ye of little faith.:laugh:

This seems to then boil down to: No Works = No Faith = No Salvation.

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
Quote:
"How many works does it take to make your faith real?


You said:

Its not an issue. They will accumulate accordingly...just like a baby will grow and grow in due time.

Good answer – how many are not the point. That’s what I tell people when they ask how many works are necessary for salvation. Non-issue. Just that you are responding to grace.

 

[mrtumnus]

Another very good post, particularly contrasting the ways different groups of Christians (in this case Baptists and Catholics) talk about "salvation" (ie "been saved" etc.)

Thank you. I do believe that is where much (not all) of the confusion lies. It seems to me that in general, Protestants focus more on the regeneration and justification piece. Catholics tend to accept that and focus more on the sanctification piece. What are perceived as being ‘works’ for justification are more rightly seen as cooperation with grace for sanctification.

 

[mrtumnus]

Actually read to understand what is actually said. Their statement in this section about faith alone is predicated by "nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification" So James said that "Faith without works are dead" Works are a key element. Catholics view this as maintenance of their Faith and we view it as a result of Faith. Justification will not land on either Catholics or Protestants if not resultant on some issue of works. In other words I can't say I believe and then be Justified when my life is devoid of righteousness. Ie. fornication, idolatry, murder, ect... We would say (OSAS) you were never saved. Catholics are saying something similar here. You cant say I believe and not repent and change your life. No justification in this circumstance. BTW I'll get to you on post 37.

“Maintenance” is an interesting way to view it. Maybe something like ‘soil maintenance’. Faith needs good soil to grow deep roots so that when the time of testing comes you do not fall away. Cooperation with sanctification is tilling the soil.

I’ll ask you too. What if your life shows great fruit and works for a significant period of time (years even) but you eventually revert back to a life of great sin. Was that person ever saved?

 

[mrtumnus]

Then you agree, it is by faith plus works. Enough said, lets move on.

Nope, not our faith. Not our works. Just God's grace.

 

[mrtumnus]

That would be a negitive Sir. To a Roman Catholic, to be justified it is by faith plus works. For example they must go to Mass every Sunday otherwise they commit a mortal sin and is in grave danger of ending up in hell if they die before confession on Tuesday night.

You need a better understanding of mortal sin. It must be a knowing, willing act which totally rejects God. Throws him out of your life by an act of free will. It’s a sin of grave nature, you understand it’s a sin of grave nature that is offensive to God, and you choose to do it.

Missing Mass on Sunday may indeed be a mortal sin. May not be. Murder may be a mortal sin. May not be.

Dying before confession is not so much of a worry as being truly penitent before dying.

 

[mrtumnus]

mrtumnas. wow you have really posted some interesting stuff and it makes sense. Lately I've been listening to tapes from Scott Hahn, and Jeff Cavins both former protestant pastors who are now fully Catholic. They explain this better then anyone I've ever heard. I find it interesting how God is using them and more like them to rebuild His Church. More and more Catholics are falling in love with Scriptures many for the first time through their teachings.

Thanks! I’ve listened/read much of Scott Hahn and I’ve heard a little of Jeff Cavins. I think Catholics have always been in love with Scripture – the Mass is soaked through with it. But I do think that at least from what I’ve read of Hahn many of the pieces are fitting better for people between Scripture and the faith they love, especially in light of the new covenant being the fulfillment of the old. He and others like him have been a real blessing the last few years.

 

[mrtumnus]

LOL - Well then you have been quite cloistered in your Catholic upbringing. Not only did I grow up Catholic and attend Catholic school, one of my best friends is a Cantor and her husband is a deacon. We've had quite a few many talks as well as speaking with her father who is also a deacon.

Let's take a look at one prayer that is familiar to all Catholics - the Salve Regina:

"Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary."

Pope John Paul II said "the history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection."

If that's not worship, then I don't know what is.

Psalm 148:14 "Let them praise the name of the LORD,for his name alone is exalted; his majesty is above earth and heaven."

Not hardly cloistered. 50 years now, with Catholic school too. And I’ll trump your two deacons with my spouse who was a principal of a Catholic school for a number of years, 3 nun aunts and a cousin priest.

But do your deacon friends confirm your opinion that Catholics worship Mary? Is that what they tell you? Do you tell them you think they do?

You do realize that this prayer is from the Middle Ages, correct? Today it would undoubtedly be written quite differently. My favorite history teacher who I happen to be married to says that the biggest mistake one can make in judging a person from history is to bring them and their actions into the context of today. You have to understand the context in which their actions occurred.

Unfortunately, English is not a dead language. Things written centuries ago don’t always come across with the same intent. Example – “Don we now our gay apparel” doesn’t quite have the same meaning anymore, due to the change in meaning of the word 'gay'.

Such it is with words like prayer, worship, praise. This prayer is from a time period where there were kings (your worship), lords, ladies. Pray literally meant (and still primarily does) to request something independent of any sort of Divine. “I pray thee Lord, grant my request” – to whatever royalty you may be conversing with.

Bringing a prayer like this out of the context of its time and the context of what the faith teaches it about Mary to judge it is a mistake if you sincerely wish to understand its purpose.

For Catholics, it is not an either/or regarding Mary or Jesus or any of the saints. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ. He is God, who is worshipped. But when we approach God the judge and Jesus the mediator in the New Jerusalem, it is knowing we also approach the angels and saints. “Praying” to Mary is requesting her intercessory prayer to her Son. It is not a replacement for praying to Christ. It is praying with Mary to Christ.

John Paul II is correct -- Mary is the path that leads to Christ. Walking her journey as the first of the redeemed is the path we follow TO Christ. Imitation of her faith – “be it done unto me according to your word” should be our walk as well.

 

[mrtumnus]

The American flag cannot get us to heaven. It cannot save us. It's an object. If it is damaged, it's material. My country still stands. It means nothing.

Let's see what "power" saying the Rosary has:

1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary.
3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify them- selves by this means.
5. The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
12. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
14. All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ
15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.

(Given to St. Dominic and Blessed Alan)
Imprimatur: Patrick J. Hayes DD Archbishop of New York

The American flag is material, but it is venerated, respected, and even given allegiance on its own (I pledge allegiance TO THE FLAG and the country….). Of course if it’s destroyed what it represents still stands. Just as a statue or icon can be venerated, respected, honored understanding what it represents. Nowhere near worship in either case.

Regarding the Rosary, you are aware that the above is considered private revelation and not part of the deposit of the faith, correct? For all of the claims that Protestants make that Catholics focus on Mary – the two official prayers of the church – the Mass and the Divine Office barely mention her. 99% focused on Christ, the Trinity, and worship thereof. Just thought I would point that out. One can be a fully faithful Catholic without ever saying a Rosary or the Salve Regina if they so choose. No problem at all.

The rosary is indeed a very popular private prayer. Most who do not know it focus on the repetitions of the “Hail Mary”. Those who do know it understand the primary focus is on the meditation of the mysteries of the life of Christ associated with each decade. I guess my first question is – if this were not the rosary but the word ‘prayer’ were substituted, which of those would you have problems with. For example – “whoever should faithfully pray shall receive special graces” -- problem or not?

 

[mrtumnus]

Gee whiz dude.

Well I can not find a book version of the Vatican II on the web.
What I have found is a link at the Vatican website that says pretty much the same thing.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/p..._apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death"

To a Roman Catholic, Jesus DID NOT pay for ALL of their sins. They must work some of it off.

Perhaps the confusion here lies in what payment for our sins actually means. Jesus alone could remove the eternal punishment for our sins – spiritual death. We are forgiven. The guilty verdict which sentenced us to eternal death is gone. He has paid the debt in full.

This still does not mean the consequences of sin in the 'here and now' are gone, correct? And while eternal punishment is indeed removed, earthly or temporary punishment is another story. The idea that we suffer no temporal consequences for our sins is not supported by either scripture or life. I get drunk and wreck my car and end up paralyzed – Jesus will certainly forgive. Doesn’t mean I get up and walk. Eternal punishment removed. Temporary punishment remains. Eternal punishment – eternal spiritual death was removed by Christ. Temporal punishment – literal physical death remains. Temporal punishment – women still bear children in pain. These things do not go away.

Even though our sins have been forgiven, God still disciplines us. Punishes, chastises, purifies, disciplines. It is called the process of sanctification – our becoming righteous men made perfect.

We can approach God with a humble heart ourselves – seeking his cleansing fire. Making reparation to those we have harmed.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God

Luke 19:8-10 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Acts: 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.


Matthew 5:23-24 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Or, we can attempt to ignore and avoid this truth, but rest in the assurance that God will assure that this occurs.

Matthew 5:25-26
"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Hebrews 12 4:11 “ In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”


Therefore, it is indeed “a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death"

 

[D28guy]

MrTumnus...

I posted this...

"If we add any "doing" or "being good" to the gospel, God tells us we will not be justified...
Quote:
"16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.""

And you said...

"Question – are you equating works of the law to be the same as works of grace?"

Thats that old deceptive nonsense that the Church or Rome uses to dupe her victims. Its completly irelavent how the works are done or what they are called. What When the New Testament scriptures speak of "works of the law" they are referring to any form "works". "being holy", "being good", "doing good", etc etc etc...for any motivation at all.

If it is added to what is required for justification, it becomes a false non-saving gospel.

"Keeping the OT law as opposed to responding to the nudge of grace?"

Either one. Makes no difference

Do you believe there is no difference between the two?[/b]

There is a big difference between the tiwo...but NOT if either of them are added to the gospel of Gods grace. No matter what form of works you want to bring up, if they are added to the gospel, you turn the gospel into a false non-saving gospel.

"If you will notice when James actually does use the term “faith alone” to explain how important deeds are – he isn’t talking about “works of the law”, or keeping the OT law."

That has no relavence to the topic at hand. The Romish church uses the misrepresentation of that and many other scriptures to decieve its victims.

"The example he gives is providing food and clothing for someone who is in need. Responding to the call of grace and showing our faith by what we do. Not "works of the law"."

That is an entirely different issue being discussed there. It has no relavence regarding how one is justified.

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Mrtumnus,

"Nor would James contradict it."

There is no contradiction between James and Paul in the least. The Church of Rome tells its victims that in order to maintain their false gosel.

James is discussing justification in an entirely different context than what is required to be justified eternally beore God.

Open your eyes, Mrtumnus! Dont let them do this to you. Dont be one of Romes victims. There is too much at stake.

Mike