The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[annsni]

Please provide scriptures that say she cannot hear our prayers or provide intercessory prayer. And I assume you think a person can never lead another to Christ?

A person can certainly lead another to Christ but there is one requirement: the person must be alive.

Can you show me ONE Scripture where anyone prays to anyone who'd dead other than the pagans? One place where God tells us "Pray to John the Baptist" or "Pray to Abraham"? It wasn't even a consideration or practice from the beginning of creation to the covenant with the chosen people to the beginning of the church. So there was no need to address it in the Bible. Let's see what Jesus said about honoring His mother: Luke 11:27-28 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

 

[annsni]

Then you do not believe that someone can pray for another person's salvation at all? You've never prayed for someone you know that they will respond to God's grace? You believe the only thing someone can do is to teach scripture?

Or do you mean to teach you Jesus? Because Word (capitalized) generally references Jesus, not scripture.

Paul at one point asked for people to pray that God would "open a door" for their message. He evidently thought there was more that could be done than teach the message.

And I'm assuming you're saying that Mary and Paul are no longer part of the body of Christ? That it is divided at death?

I'm going to agree with Alive in Christ's post. The dead are gone and glorified with their Father. They have no hearing of us, no influence on us and cannot "do" for us. We have direct access to the Father. We do ask for others to pray to support us but since the dead cannot hear us, then I think it's pretty empty prayers that just go as far as our ceiling.

Again, post one verse - one passage - where someone prays to the dead in the Scriptures.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I'm going to agree with Alive in Christ's post. The dead are gone and glorified with their Father. They have no hearing of us, no influence on us and cannot "do" for us. We have direct access to the Father. We do ask for others to pray to support us but since the dead cannot hear us, then I think it's pretty empty prayers that just go as far as our ceiling.

Again, post one verse - one passage - where someone prays to the dead in the Scriptures.

Just a point. Why are the Martyrs in Heaven asking God when he's going to fulfill his justice? Why does the apostle say that there are a cloud of witnesses? Just a thought.

 

[annsni]

Just a point. Why are the Martyrs in Heaven asking God when he's going to fulfill his justice? Why does the apostle say that there are a cloud of witnesses? Just a thought.

Do you think that those in heaven do not know of when Christ comes again? Even heaven will know when Christ comes and avenges those who were martyred for Christ's sake. Rev. 18:20 says "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." I do think they will know about that from heaven's side but it does not support the idea of us praying to them and them praying to God for us.

Are the witnesses in Hebrews 11 ones who witness us and what we do or are they witnesses to faith and God's faithfulness? Since the first is not consistent with the passage, it must be the second.

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
In order to have that grace applied to us, we must indeed participate in some way

You said:
Which means "works". How does one participate without calling it a work? See below examples of works.

Therefore do you believe in pre-destination? (I’m really assuming you’re not a universalist). Either God selects those He will save and provides them with grace and the gift of faith as evidence that He has selected them (and only them) OR He provides the opportunity for salvation to all.

If the former is your line of thinking, then faith is not what saves us. If is merely evidence that God chose us to be saved, and free will does not exist.

If the latter is your line of thinking, and God has provided access to salvation to ALL, then why are some saved and some not? Seems like that puts that the ball squarely in the court that we must participate by an act of our free will in order to be saved.

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
and respond to the free gift of grace

You said:
Response by doing some work. How do you "respond" without calliing it a 'work'? See below for examples of work..


Then you say the same exact thing I have been saying all along.
Catholics believe faith plus works will get them grace.

No, Catholics believe that faith and works are the result of grace. Both of them. And you believe that faith alone will get you grace? The Bible teaches that grace is necessary for you to even have faith. This is why one does not earn their salvation by their faith any more than one can earn it by their works. And faith is a gift.

Catholics believe that the abundant grace that is the result of the merits of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is merited by neither our works or our faith. Neither ‘gets’ us the grace of salvation. Free gift available for all which we must accept and use, or lose.

I have said repeatedly that a necessary response is both faith and works. I don’t not call it ‘works’. What I say is that it is neither our faith nor our works that saves us. It is God's grace. But if you truly have grace, you cannot be absent works. You are the tree with the ax in place to chop it down and put it in the fire.

You did not answer my previous question. Do you believe that one will be saved because they have faith yet they have no works?

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
Catholics would say that faith alone absent works of grace is not an adequate response to grace.



You said:
Grace in Catholic terms means faith plus works. One must have faith and do the works to recieve Grace.

For example
-------------------
Work == baptism
Work == receiveing communion
Work == going to Mass
Work == doing penance
Work == saying the rosary
Work == spending time in purgatory
Work == joining the Roman Catholic Church

What is not works
------------------
Not work == believing the sun will rise tomorrow

Faith alone is sufficient. Roman Catholic theology is still a works based theology. One must have faith and do work in order to obtain salvation.

Catholic theology is a graced-based theology. We are saved by grace alone. Not by our faith. Not by our works.

If you believe ‘faith alone’ is sufficient, could you please explain to me how you interpret the 25th chapter of Matthew’s Gospel when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats at the end of time? 100% of the criteria he uses are ‘works’ – feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, tending the sick.

“Works” is an interesting word. Lots of definitions. This is the first from MW:

Activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something

Notice the ‘faculties’ part? Not just using your body – using your mind. Believing the sun will rise tomorrow can indeed by considered a ‘work’. You exerted your mind.

To repent -- to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
I’d say a work. Do you believe one must repent in order to be saved?

Prayer – definitely something we do. I’d say a work. The Bible teaches us that prayer causes grace to flow.

The Bible also says we ‘administer’ grace. Administer – to dispense. I’d say definitely a work.

Humbling ourselves – I’d say work. The Bible says this can cause grace to increase.

Forgiveness of others -- I'd vote work for that too.

 

[mrtumnus]

Mrtumnus,



OK...





:laugh: :laugh:




Only a Catholic, or Catholic apologist, could be so out in "La La Land" as to equate one person sharing the gospel with someone...with the idolatrous "Maryolatry" that the Catholic Church cons her victims into believing and participating in.

"Thinking" is your friend, Mrtumnus. Try it sometime.



Thanks for the laugh

If I didn't think I wouldn't have so many questions.:thumbs:

And laughing is good for the body and soul – glad to oblige you.:wavey:

If you believe that asking anyone in the body of Christ to pray for you is contradictory to Jesus being the one mediator between God and man, then your verse would be applicable to your way of thinking. Is this what you think? I would have to say that is contrary to what Scripture teaches.

If you’re implying that it’s okay to request one of the family of God living on earth to pray for you and not one of the family living in heaven – the Bible teaches there is no division in the body of Christ. To imply that some can offer intercessory prayer for us and others cannot would be a division in the body.

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
Jesus alone could remove spiritual death


You said:
He could then again He could not. It all depends on your works.
If you do not continue your works (going to Mass, eating the Euchrist), then salvation is lost. Hence Roman catholic theology is a work based salvation. our disagreement in the meaning of work. So lets go there and get a better understanding of what it means to both of us.

I gave examples what work means to me, now
What does work mean to you? Please explain.
Could you please give me an example of a work that is required for salvation?

Actually, Catholic theology is a grace-based salvation. Not our faith. Not our works. God’s grace. And Catholic theology is that there is nothing we could do to remove the consequence of eternal spiritual death. Only Christ on the cross.

The work that is required for salvation is to respond to what grace calls us to do. To reject what grace calls us to do is to reject the gift of grace we have received. It is to take the talent and bury it and never use it.

As far as continuing in grace, that would be true. We are urged to "continue in the grace of God". We do believe that one can receive the talent and not use it, and thereby lose it. Just like Jesus teaches in the parable.

And I don't believe you ever responded to my question regarding your interpretation of what those verses mean regarding God's disciplining and punishing us?

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
Jesus told us that when we pray to request the Father to “forgive us our sins”. Do you still pray this in the Lord’s prayer? If so, why if you don’t believe it is needed?

You said:
I do not have time to go down every rabbit trail. You can start a new thread and ask this. Right now on want to focus on the 'faith plus works' theology of Rome which you believe does not exists.

Actually, you are who made the statement in the context of the discussion that all your sins, past, present and future are forgiven. I simply asked you to provide scriptural support for that, and explain why you believe Jesus taught us to pray for God’s forgiveness continually. Did you provide the scripture about our future sins being forgiven?

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
And hope is a wonderful theological virtue. What do you propose its purpose is if not the hope of heaven? At any rate, I believe I am in good company. Paul says that we have put our hope in the living God, that we are called to one hope when we are called, that we eagerly await the righteousness for which we hope, and we have a faith and knowledge that rests on the hope of eternal life.

So what do you hope for?



You said:
Bible say
"in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago".
God promised it, so the hope in eternal life is already given but not here yet.

What do I hope for? His second coming. I already have the salvation part down. No need to 'hope I make it to heaven'.

Yes indeed, the hope of eternal life was promised ages ago by God. In the Garden of Eden I believe.

No belief for you that you are “being saved” then I take it? No “continuing to work out your salvation in fear or trembling” for you I guess? No need to “persist in doing good” or concern you may have received God’s grace in vain? No thought you need to continue in the grace of God, or that your salvation is “nearer now than when you first believed”? No belief that you should be on guard so you don’t lose your secure position? No belief that you need to endure to the end to be saved, and that you need to be diligent to the end to make your hope sure? No consideration that you could possibly again become entangled in the corruption of the world? No need to hold firmly to the word so you have not believed in vain? No understanding that you can actually not remain in Christ, or that once the debt has been paid it can indeed be revoked?

If I didn't know better I would say we're not reading the same New Testament.

 

[Alive in Christ]

mrtumnus,

You said...

"Free gift available for all which we must accept and use, or lose."

Thats why you hold to a false non-saving gospel.

Its not "must accept and use, or lose".

Its..."accept or lose".

"I have said repeatedly that a necessary response is both faith and works."

And thats why you are promoting a false and non-saving gospel.

The necesarry response is not "faith and works"

The saving response is "faith" at the exclusion of works.

After justification has taken place, the new life will begin to manifest itself. But it has no part in the attainment of justification.

If it is included, God will not grant new life. As a matter of fact, if "works" and "being good" are added, God curses that gospel.

From the scriptures....

"10 For as many as are of the works of the law (adding any good works to justification) are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[a]

11 But that no one is justified by the law (adding any good works to justification) in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” (faith alone)

12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[c]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law (having to add good works to be justified), having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[d]),

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (faith alone)

:godisgood:

 

[mrtumnus]

I said:
Please provide scriptures that say she cannot hear our prayers or provide intercessory prayer. And I assume you think a person can never lead another to Christ?



You said:
A person can certainly lead another to Christ but there is one requirement: the person must be alive.

Can you show me ONE Scripture where anyone prays to anyone who'd dead other than the pagans? One place where God tells us "Pray to John the Baptist" or "Pray to Abraham"? It wasn't even a consideration or practice from the beginning of creation to the covenant with the chosen people to the beginning of the church. So there was no need to address it in the Bible. Let's see what Jesus said about honoring His mother: Luke 11:27-28 As he said these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts at which you nursed!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"

The Bible teaches us that there is one family of God that lives in both heaven and earth. It teaches us that when we now come to the New Jerusalem we are in the presence of not only the Father and Jesus but the saints as well. We are in their presence but they cannot hear us? It teaches us that there is one body of Christ and there is no division within it. It teaches us that we cannot say to any part of the body that we don’t need it. It teaches us that all parts care for each other. To believe that some members of the body of Christ can lead us to him and not others is a division in the body.

Those who you are calling dead are who Paul refers to as the family of God in heaven. They are more alive than we are. It would seem plausible to me that the reason there was no need to address it in the Bible is that these teachings of Paul’s are so clear about the body of Christ not being divided even by death and that when we now come to God we are also in their presence – it didn’t need to be specified that they were praying for us.

Do you know where the first recorded record of prayers to the saints is?

At any rate, since there does not appear to be any scripture which says they cannot hear us, does that not leave the only answer from a “Bible alone” perspective to be “We don’t know” as opposed to “They can’t”?

Regarding the pagans ‘praying to the dead’ – are there scriptures where the pagans make humble requests to those who have died to pray for them?

Regarding the Scripture about Jesus honoring Mary – language is indeed interesting, is it not? You are applying what MW has as the 4th definition of the word rather – on the contrary. Why not the first – “with better reason”. The better reason that Mary is blessed is not because of her physically carrying Christ – it is because she heard the word of God and obeyed it. As we all will be.

My interpretation is supported by Scripture in that we have no better example of someone who heard the word of God and obeyed it than Mary.

Your interpretation that Jesus is saying that Mary is not blessed contradicts this. It also is contradicted by Scripture in that Elizabeth calls her 'blessed', and Mary says that all generations will call her blessed. Aside from that, it also means that Jesus chose to make a point by publicly dishonoring his mother, which places him in violation of the commandment of God to “Honor your father and mother".

 

[mrtumnus]

I'm going to agree with Alive in Christ's post. The dead are gone and glorified with their Father. They have no hearing of us, no influence on us and cannot "do" for us. We have direct access to the Father. We do ask for others to pray to support us but since the dead cannot hear us, then I think it's pretty empty prayers that just go as far as our ceiling.

Again, post one verse - one passage - where someone prays to the dead in the Scriptures.

Why do you ask others to pray for you at all if you have direct access to the Father?

 

[mrtumnus]

Thats why you hold to a false non-saving gospel.

Its not "must accept and use, or lose".

Its..."accept or lose".

Please provide me with your interpretation of the parable of the talents.

 

[mrtumnus]

mrtumnus,

You said...



Thats why you hold to a false non-saving gospel.

Its not "must accept and use, or lose".

Its..."accept or lose".



And thats why you are promoting a false and non-saving gospel.

The necesarry response is not "faith and works"

The saving response is "faith" at the exclusion of works.

After justification has taken place, the new life will begin to manifest itself. But it has no part in the attainment of justification.

If it is included, God will not grant new life. As a matter of fact, if "works" and "being good" are added, God curses that gospel.

From the scriptures....


"10 For as many as are of the works of the law (adding any good works to justification) are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[a]

11 But that no one is justified by the law (adding any good works to justification) in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” (faith alone)

12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[c]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law (having to add good works to be justified), having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[d]),

14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (faith alone)

:godisgood:

My understanding of these passages from Galatians is that the gentiles were being instructed that they had to follow the Jewish law in order to be saved, which would indeed be contrary to the Gospel.

Now, please give me your understanding of these Scriptures (and I don't need to add any words):


Romans 2:7
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 3:10
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Matthew 7:26
"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand."

Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


1 John 2:24
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.


1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

1 John 3:24
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

John 25:26
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.


Matthew 31:46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Matthew 23:35
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

 

[mrtumnus]

Thanks for answering my post. My husband goes to the Parish where Jeff Cavins teaches his Bible Study and for the last two years I've been attending myself and I'm not the only non Catholic there, there are protestant Pastors, and even a Jewish person. Cavin's Adventure Through The Bible Series is being studied by over 6,000 Catholics in Minneapolis St Paul area, It's now in over 2,000 Catholic Parishes all over the country and now has gone international. This fall Jeff will be back on EWTN with his Adventure Through The Bible. What I've learned is how the whole Bible fits together to tell the whole story of salvation history. By the way Jeff first taught this class whenhe was a Protestant Pastor!

God is moving greatly!


grace56

I meant to reply to this yesterday Grace and didn't get back to it. Just wanted to say AMEN.:wavey:

 

[annsni]

The Bible teaches us that there is one family of God that lives in both heaven and earth. It teaches us that when we now come to the New Jerusalem we are in the presence of not only the Father and Jesus but the saints as well. We are in their presence but they cannot hear us? It teaches us that there is one body of Christ and there is no division within it. It teaches us that we cannot say to any part of the body that we don’t need it. It teaches us that all parts care for each other. To believe that some members of the body of Christ can lead us to him and not others is a division in the body.

Those who you are calling dead are who Paul refers to as the family of God in heaven. They are more alive than we are. It would seem plausible to me that the reason there was no need to address it in the Bible is that these teachings of Paul’s are so clear about the body of Christ not being divided even by death and that when we now come to God we are also in their presence – it didn’t need to be specified that they were praying for us.

Do you know where the first recorded record of prayers to the saints is?

At any rate, since there does not appear to be any scripture which says they cannot hear us, does that not leave the only answer from a “Bible alone” perspective to be “We don’t know” as opposed to “They can’t”?

Regarding the pagans ‘praying to the dead’ – are there scriptures where the pagans make humble requests to those who have died to pray for them?

Regarding the Scripture about Jesus honoring Mary – language is indeed interesting, is it not? You are applying what MW has as the 4th definition of the word rather – on the contrary. Why not the first – “with better reason”. The better reason that Mary is blessed is not because of her physically carrying Christ – it is because she heard the word of God and obeyed it. As we all will be.

My interpretation is supported by Scripture in that we have no better example of someone who heard the word of God and obeyed it than Mary.

Your interpretation that Jesus is saying that Mary is not blessed contradicts this. It also is contradicted by Scripture in that Elizabeth calls her 'blessed', and Mary says that all generations will call her blessed. Aside from that, it also means that Jesus chose to make a point by publicly dishonoring his mother, which places him in violation of the commandment of God to “Honor your father and mother".

Can I pray to my friend in the Congo and expect him to hear me and pray for me? No. I can contact him and ask but otherwise he cannot hear. It is the same with the dead. Yes, their souls are alive in heaven - but they have no contact with the earth and those of us here. If they did, why didn't the rich man just go ahead and speak to his brothers?

IF we were to pray to those who were dead, Scripture would definitely say it. By it not saying it, it doesn't mean it's OK. That is a pretty important doctrine and one that, if true, would be spoken of atleast once in the 66 books.

I do agree that Mary was blessed but she is not greater blessed than those who are saved by the Word of God. No where does Jesus say to adore, revere or worship His mother. It's idolatry plain and simple.

 

[annsni]

Why do you ask others to pray for you at all if you have direct access to the Father?

We are told to pray for each other. However that directive was given to those who are alive. No where in Scripture are we told to pray to the dead and the ONLY contact with the dead is quite frowned upon.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Do you think that those in heaven do not know of when Christ comes again? Even heaven will know when Christ comes and avenges those who were martyred for Christ's sake. Rev. 18:20 says "Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." I do think they will know about that from heaven's side but it does not support the idea of us praying to them and them praying to God for us.

Are the witnesses in Hebrews 11 ones who witness us and what we do or are they witnesses to faith and God's faithfulness? Since the first is not consistent with the passage, it must be the second.

Consistent with what you believe. Thats putting things into it. Lets look again: Chapter 11 of Hebrews is what has been referred to as the the "Faith Hall of Fame" Then specifically:

Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:1-2a Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses (my input here: logical from the hall of faith discourse a follow up to it), let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith.

It is pretty clear that the cloud of witnesses are those who have gone on before the faithful. Great was used meets up will the "Hall of Fame" characters listed in the chapter before. Logical to assume then that they are the witnesses as are their works of faith to us and together their works would be made perfect.

So you think once we die and go to heaven we will have no conserns with the earth or its inhabitants? Do you think God will keep all things occuring here veiled? If this is the case why did Moses and Elijah come to speak with Jesus during the transformation? Do you think they were oblivious? I believe in hell there is no knowledge. With God there is especially about the occurances with his church, his people, his community. Now it matters not that we pray to them but I think very much they pray for us whether not we pray to them. I'm not suggesting that we pray to them. I am however suggesting that they pray for us and when we are with them we will pray for those left here. The angels intercede for us why can't we intercede for our brothers and sisters? Remember Jesus said to be great in his kingdom we must be the servant of all. And when we are with him do you think that we will be less likely to want to serve others? Or will we live in self saticifying continual praise with no consern for anyone else? I think the closer we draw to God, the more we praise him, the more like him we become and the desire to serve others and him become key to us so we will pray for them, praise and glorify the Lord and be about his purpose. I agree with Lewis and MacDonald. When we get to Heaven real living will begin.