The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[Agnus_Dei]

wow...i go on vacation for a week and miss all the fun...

my observation thus far is that none have presented any concrete reasons why the "Roman" Catholic Church can't be THE Church. Only the same 'ol " mary worship", or "faith only" arguments we've seen a hundred times, but hey, whatever stimulates the mind and some minds do need stimulating after years of being told what to think.

One reason why the "Roman" Catholic Church can't be THE Church is because of the five sees: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandra; it was Rome who essentially excommunicated herself from the main body of truth in 1054. Rome isolated herself from the other remaining sees and we see many unofficial doctrines creep into the Roman Western Church...Immaculate Conception of Mary (due in large part to the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin), Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Limbo, changes in the Sacramental theology...etc. More changes came in the Vatican Councils of I and II and many, many Roman Catholics left the Church and continue today due in large part to Vatican II.

This is probably the main reason that after taking Roman Catholic RCIA classes and Orthodox Catechesis classes that I made a decision to join the Orthodox Christian Church.

In XC
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[targus]

We are told to pray for each other. However that directive was given to those who are alive. No where in Scripture are we told to pray to the dead and the ONLY contact with the dead is quite frowned upon.

Playing the devil's advocate...

How do we "contact" the dead if they can't hear us?

Doesn't the instruction not to consult the dead imply that the dead can hear us?

 

[mrtumnus]

wow...i go on vacation for a week and miss all the fun...

my observation thus far is that none have presented any concrete reasons why the "Roman" Catholic Church can't be THE Church. Only the same 'ol " mary worship", or "faith only" arguments we've seen a hundred times, but hey, whatever stimulates the mind and some minds do need stimulating after years of being told what to think.

One reason why the "Roman" Catholic Church can't be THE Church is because of the five sees: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandra; it was Rome who essentially excommunicated herself from the main body of truth in 1054. Rome isolated herself from the other remaining sees and we see many unofficial doctrines creep into the Roman Western Church...Immaculate Conception of Mary (due in large part to the Augustinian doctrine of Original Sin), Papal Infallibility, Purgatory, Limbo, changes in the Sacramental theology...etc. More changes came in the Vatican Councils of I and II and many, many Roman Catholics left the Church and continue today due in large part to Vatican II.

This is probably the main reason that after taking Roman Catholic RCIA classes and Orthodox Catechesis classes that I made a decision to join the Orthodox Christian Church.

In XC
-

Hi Agnus_Dei, nice that you can join us.:wavey:

I am by no means an expert on Orthodox theology but have attempted to study it and the issues you bring forth as I can. If you would like to start a new thread or would like me to regarding different beliefs within the apostolic churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican) I'm sure it would be quite entertaining to a group of Baptists.:smilewinkgrin:

When a person comes to the realization that the church founded by Christ is indeed apostolic, they then must determine where that church today is present. In my opinion, we within these branches must realize that as long as we are not 'one', our ability to proclaim the church is hindered. My preference is to stand with both John Paul II and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew who have both stated that it is necessary for the church to begin to breathe with 'two lungs'.

 

[mrtumnus]

Playing the devil's advocate...

How do we "contact" the dead if they can't hear us?

Doesn't the instruction not to consult the dead imply that the dead can hear us?

Wow, good point. I'm going to write that down -- consider it borrowed.

 

[mrtumnus]

Hey Peterotto, there's another "work" I should have put on my list. So obvious I guess I forgot. Expressing love. The only thing that make "faith" count according to St. Paul.

 

[annsni]

Playing the devil's advocate...

How do we "contact" the dead if they can't hear us?

Doesn't the instruction not to consult the dead imply that the dead can hear us?

Do you really think a witch can speak to someone in heaven?

Note what 1 Samuel 28:13 says about Samuel and where he was coming from: "I saw gods ascending out of the earth." (hint: Samuel was not in the earth)

Isaiah 8:19 says " "And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

So we are not to contact the dead because we can't - and all it does is to bring up demons. No where in Scripture are the dead contacted. Ever.

It is important to know that there is ONE mediator between God and man - not multiple ones. If God says there's ONE, then there is ONE. I do not mediate for others. Prayers to Mary are prayers to mediate between me and Jesus. Since there's ONE mediator it goes like this:

Me------>Jesus--------->God

If it's me------->Mary------>Jesus-------->God then there is more than one mediator and God is a liar.


Once again, Scripture is clear. Do not try to contact the dead - contact God. The dead cannot hear our prayers - only God can. There is one mediator - Jesus Christ.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Do you really think a witch can speak to someone in heaven?

Isaiah 8:19 says " "And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

It is important to know that there is ONE mediator between God and man - not multiple ones. If God says there's ONE, then there is ONE. I do not mediate for others. Prayers to Mary are prayers to mediate between me and Jesus. Since there's ONE mediator it goes like this:

Me------>Jesus--------->God

If it's me------->Mary------>Jesus-------->God then there is more than one mediator and God is a liar.

annsni: when someone "consults" a medium on behalf of the living, like for instance...John Edwards from the show "Crossing Over" they are looking to gain information from the dead...that is not what "asking" a Saint to pray for us is about.

Me asking YOU to pray for me is again no difference than me asking a Saint to pray for me...I'm not consulting YOU for information, neither am I consulting the Saint for information, all I'm asking is for prayers.

That's not taking anything away from Jesus as being my advocate before God.

So when you go to your Wednesday evening prayer group, using your logic, you should abstain from participating, since you are breaking your own commandment.

annsni---->prayer group (individuals)----->Jesus------>God

have a nice day

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

It is important to know that there is ONE mediator between God and man - not multiple ones. If God says there's ONE, then there is ONE. I do not mediate for others. There is one mediator - Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, there's a missing element in your logic...you assume that when someone asks a Saint for prayers, they are asking a Saint to "Mediate"...that's also not the case.

We call for others and Saints not as mediators, but as "intercessors".

So when you pray for someone in your church, you are interceding on their behalf.

ICXC NIKA
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[targus]

Do you really think a witch can speak to someone in heaven?

Note what 1 Samuel 28:13 says about Samuel and where he was coming from: "I saw gods ascending out of the earth." (hint: Samuel was not in the earth)

Isaiah 8:19 says " "And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"

So we are not to contact the dead because we can't - and all it does is to bring up demons. No where in Scripture are the dead contacted. Ever.

It is important to know that there is ONE mediator between God and man - not multiple ones. If God says there's ONE, then there is ONE. I do not mediate for others. Prayers to Mary are prayers to mediate between me and Jesus. Since there's ONE mediator it goes like this:

Me------>Jesus--------->God

If it's me------->Mary------>Jesus-------->God then there is more than one mediator and God is a liar.


Once again, Scripture is clear. Do not try to contact the dead - contact God. The dead cannot hear our prayers - only God can. There is one mediator - Jesus Christ.

That doesn't answer my question.

If the dead can't hear the living how does the living consult with the dead?

I'm not saying that anyone should consult the dead, I am merely asking you how would one do so if the dead can not hear the living.

You seem to hold contradictory beliefs...
The dead can't hear the living.
The living can consult with the dead.

 

[Amy.G]

In order to ask a dead saint to pray for you, you must pray to them, because they are dead.

The Bible is clear that we are not pray to anyone but God. I often pray to God for Him to tell my grandmother and my father (who are in heaven) that I love them, but I would not consider praying to them. That is reserved for God alone.

 

[grace56]

One of the neat things we learned at Bible Study last year was that in the Old Testament times the Queen mentioned was always the mother of the King. Think about it how many wives did David have? How about Solomon? They all couldn't be the Queen. Each of them only had one mother and she was the Queen. The people came to her to ask request of the King. Read 1 Kings 2: 19 and you see that even the King paid his mother homage, and he even had a throne provided for her on his right. Since Jesus was to sit on the throne of David for eternity his mother is also there as our Queen. She has Jesus's ear so to speak so we can ask her for help if we want to.

I know to most of you this makes no sense at all, I was also amazed how the Catholics use the Jewish traditions so much in their Church. I know you'll say Jesus did away with Traditions. Not so, he only did away with the bad ones and He Himself followed the good ones. Then again when I think about how the Catholics go all the way back to the Apostles who were Jewish I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

Grace56

 

[Agnus_Dei]

In order to ask a dead saint to pray for you, you must pray to them, because they are dead.

Technically speaking Amy.G, the Saints in Heaven are not dead, but alive. The true Church is composed of all who are alive in Christ...in heaven and on earth. It is not limited in membership to those presently alive. Those in heaven with Christ are alive, in communion with God, worshiping God, doing their part in the Body of Christ, which includes praying for the Church.

In XC
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[Amy.G]

One of the neat things we learned at Bible Study last year was that in the Old Testament times the Queen mentioned was always the mother of the King. Think about it how many wives did David have? How about Solomon? They all couldn't be the Queen. Each of them only had one mother and she was the Queen. The people came to her to ask request of the King. Read 1 Kings 2: 19 and you see that even the King paid his mother homage, and he even had a throne provided for her on his right. Since Jesus was to sit on the throne of David for eternity his mother is also there as our Queen. She has Jesus's ear so to speak so we can ask her for help if we want to.

I'm sorry. I do not recall David having a queen. Who was she? I do not recall ever reading that Israel had a queen. Maybe you could show me some scripture.

I know to most of you this makes no sense at all, I was also amazed how the Catholics use the Jewish traditions so much in their Church. I know you'll say Jesus did away with Traditions. Not so, he only did away with the bad ones and He Himself followed the good ones. Then again when I think about how the Catholics go all the way back to the Apostles who were Jewish I guess I shouldn't have been surprised.

Grace56

Jesus only did away with the bad ones? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.
Jesus fulfilled the "LAW" not traditions. He had zero use for traditions of men.

The Old Covenant has passed away and we are now under the New Covenant.


Christ does not have a "queen". He has a bride, His wife, the church.

 

[Amy.G]

Technically speaking Amy.G, the Saints in Heaven are not dead, but alive. The true Church is composed of all who are alive in Christ...in heaven and on earth. It is not limited in membership to those presently alive. Those in heaven with Christ are alive, in communion with God, worshiping God, doing their part in the Body of Christ, which includes praying for the Church.

In XC
-

I agree that they are alive. Maybe I should put it this way, we should not pray to any human being, dead or alive. Our prayers go up to the throne of God. In order to speak to someone in heaven, you must pray to them. You cannot call them on the phone or go over to their house or meet them at church. Praying to anyone other than God, puts them in the place of God.



This is how Jesus taught us how to pray:

Luk 11:1 NOW it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."

Luk 11:2 So He said to them, "When you pray, say:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Luk 11:3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one."


There is not one example in all of scripture where we are told to pray to a human being.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I agree that they are alive. Maybe I should put it this way, we should not pray to any human being, dead or alive. Our prayers go up to the throne of God. In order to speak to someone in heaven, you must pray to them. You cannot call them on the phone or go over to their house or meet them at church. Praying to anyone other than God, puts them in the place of God.

Maybe we should define what pray means. Prayer is a request..."I pray thee". Pray is also used in the legal sense to refer to a case that the party of the prosecution brings before the court. The plaintiff's demands are known collectively as the "prayer" or "prayer for relief".

So technically speaking when you ask someone to pray for you, you are essentially praying to them, regardless if they are Saints alive in Heaven or Christians alive on earth. I don't believe God takes any offense whatsoever since we all are the body of Christ.

In XC
-

 

[mrtumnus]

In order to ask a dead saint to pray for you, you must pray to them, because they are dead.

The Bible is clear that we are not pray to anyone but God. I often pray to God for Him to tell my grandmother and my father (who are in heaven) that I love them, but I would not consider praying to them. That is reserved for God alone.

The primary definition of the word 'pray' is to "make a humble request" to anybody. We all pray to other people all the time.

People don't understand the definition of the word anymore. The better wording to use so all clearly understand is to "request others to pray for us", whether they're the family living on earth or in heaven.

 

[mrtumnus]

I'm sorry. I do not recall David having a queen. Who was she? I do not recall ever reading that Israel had a queen. Maybe you could show me some scripture.



Jesus only did away with the bad ones? I don't think I've ever heard that one before.
Jesus fulfilled the "LAW" not traditions. He had zero use for traditions of men.

The Old Covenant has passed away and we are now under the New Covenant.


Christ does not have a "queen". He has a bride, His wife, the church.

A study of Jewish history shows the mother of the king in the role of queen. I think Grace did give you some Scripture -- it shows this relationship between Solomon and his mother Bathsheba. The Jewish kings are a foreshadowing of the kingship of Christ.

Jesus fulfilled the more than the law. The new covenant is not a "replacement" for the old -- it is the fulfillment of it. That is why when Paul says that Jesus is our "Passover Lamb" -- we understand what that meant in the old covenant and how it "foreshadows" the new and how Jesus fulfills it in the new. Manna in the old covenant foreshadows the Eucharist. Water in the old covenant foreshadows baptism. Wood foreshadows the cross. Moses dipped his wooden staff into the bitter waters and made them sweet.

The entire exodus from Egypt and the journey to the Promised Land is the salvation story. The people start out in slavery (bondage to sin). They are released and pass through the waters of the Red Sea (baptism). They spend 40 years running around the desert looking like idiots a lot of the time (us). They eventually make it to the Promised Land (heaven) although not all who start the journey complete it.

 

[Zenas]

I'm sorry. I do not recall David having a queen. Who was she? I do not recall ever reading that Israel had a queen. Maybe you could show me some scripture.

Israel's queen was referred to as the "queen mother." She was the mother of the king. Although the mother of David did not occupy that office, so far as we know, the mother of Solomon did. Bathseba sat on a throne next to Solomon. 1 Kings 2:19. We see this rather unique Israeli office of queen mother again in 1 Kings 15:13 (Maacah, mother of King Asa) and 2 Kings 10:13 (the unnamed mother of King Jehu).

 

[Amy.G]

Israel's queen was referred to as the "queen mother." She was the mother of the king. Although the mother of David did not occupy that office, so far as we know, the mother of Solomon did. Bathseba sat on a throne next to Solomon. 1 Kings 2:19. We see this rather unique Israeli office of queen mother again in 1 Kings 15:13 (Maacah, mother of King Asa) and 2 Kings 10:13 (the unnamed mother of King Jehu).

I stand corrected. :saint:

I was not aware of those scriptures. Thanks. However, there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand. The only "woman" in His life is the church.

 

[mrtumnus]

I stand corrected. :saint:

I was not aware of those scriptures. Thanks. However, there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand. The only "woman" in His life is the church.

And where are the Scriptures that there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand? Seems to me unless the Bible specifically say that there is not, the most someone can say is that based on the Bible-alone they don't know.

That position does however reject the Jewish kings and their kingdoms as the foreshadowing of Christ and his kingdom which is a significant piece of the OT covenant.