The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[Doubting Thomas]

And where are the Scriptures that there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand? Seems to me unless the Bible specifically say that there is not, the most someone can say is that based on the Bible-alone they don't know.

That position does however reject the Jewish kings and their kingdoms as the foreshadowing of Christ and his kingdom which is a significant piece of the OT covenant.

Psalm 45:9 mentions that the queen stands at the right hand of the Messianic King. (As others have pointed out in the Davidic kingdom, the queen was actually the queen mother or the "gebirah"). Hebrews 1:8 applies this psalm to Christ. We also know that Elizabeth referred to Mary as the Mother of her Lord--just a few verses after Luke records Gabriel telling Mary that God will give to her Son the throne of David.

Just some more food for thought.

 

[annsni]

annsni: when someone "consults" a medium on behalf of the living, like for instance...John Edwards from the show "Crossing Over" they are looking to gain information from the dead...that is not what "asking" a Saint to pray for us is about.

Me asking YOU to pray for me is again no difference than me asking a Saint to pray for me...I'm not consulting YOU for information, neither am I consulting the Saint for information, all I'm asking is for prayers.

That's not taking anything away from Jesus as being my advocate before God.

So when you go to your Wednesday evening prayer group, using your logic, you should abstain from participating, since you are breaking your own commandment.

annsni---->prayer group (individuals)----->Jesus------>God

have a nice day

In XC
-

The difference is the prayer group can hear me. As I said, even my missionary friend in the Congo cannot hear me unless I contact him via phone. I cannot pray - even out loud - "Joe, please pray for me" because he does not hear me. The dead cannot hear us.

 

[annsni]

That doesn't answer my question.

If the dead can't hear the living how does the living consult with the dead?

I'm not saying that anyone should consult the dead, I am merely asking you how would one do so if the dead can not hear the living.

You seem to hold contradictory beliefs...
The dead can't hear the living.
The living can consult with the dead.

The "living consulting with the dead" is not really consulting with the dead. Do you think that witches and mediums are really contacting dear long lost Aunt Bess? No. They are either lying (which is often the case) or if they really DO get in contact with someone, it's a demon and not the dead person. We cannot contact the dead. We cannot consult with the dead. The dead have nothing to do with contact (hearing or communicating with) the dead.

I don't see what's so hard for anyone to understand.

The dead are deaf to our cries. The dead do not hear our prayers. Our prayers are only to be directed to God. If we pray to anyone or anything else, it is idolatry and a sin. Period.

 

[annsni]

And where are the Scriptures that there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand? Seems to me unless the Bible specifically say that there is not, the most someone can say is that based on the Bible-alone they don't know.

That position does however reject the Jewish kings and their kingdoms as the foreshadowing of Christ and his kingdom which is a significant piece of the OT covenant.

I do not see one evidence of a queen mother at Christ's right hand. I'm SURE it would be important enough to mention in Scripture - especially Revelation.

The Bible also doesn't say that Jesus doesn't have a video game or a McDonalds near His throne. Hmmm - wonder if it's there?

Considering that Mary was NOT exaulted ever while Jesus was around - nor did He ever say to honor her more than anyone else, I'd say it's pretty safe to say that Mary idolatry is wrong.

 

[annsni]

Psalm 45:9 mentions that the queen stands at the right hand of the Messianic King. (As others have pointed out in the Davidic kingdom, the queen was actually the queen mother or the "gebirah"). Hebrews 1:8 applies this psalm to Christ. We also know that Elizabeth referred to Mary as the Mother of her Lord--just a few verses after Luke records Gabriel telling Mary that God will give to her Son the throne of David.

Just some more food for thought.

Yes, Mary was the mother her Lord. She was the mother of the earthly body of Christ. She was His mother. However, as we've spoken of forever in the past, she was not the mother of God - giving origin to the divinity of Christ. He was from before Mary was ever even conceived.

The queen referred to in Psalms is not a queen mother, but the bride of Christ. Yes, there were queen mothers just as there are queen mothers in monarchies today - but they are not the ruling queen. There is a large difference. Scripture is clear to point out when it's a queen mother or a queen.

Interestingly enough, Jeremiah 7:18 says some pretty strong things about a "queen of heaven" - who was a god that was worshiped by many. Also Jeremiah 44 continues the story.

Just something to think about.

 

[Amy.G]

And where are the Scriptures that there is no queen mother at Christ's right hand? Seems to me unless the Bible specifically say that there is not, the most someone can say is that based on the Bible-alone they don't know.

If you don't know if the "queen mother" is at Christ's right hand, that should be reason enough not to pray to her. Do you pray to her just in case she is there? Even if she is there, what authority does she have? You will find nothing in scripture saying that there is a queen mother sitting at Christ's right hand. That is only your opinion and you're not even sure about that.

 

[mrtumnus]

The difference is the prayer group can hear me. As I said, even my missionary friend in the Congo cannot hear me unless I contact him via phone. I cannot pray - even out loud - "Joe, please pray for me" because he does not hear me. The dead cannot hear us.

Ann, you have yet to provide any Scripture that supports this. I say again, if you believe that the "Bible-alone" is your authority -- the most you should be able to say is that you don't know. Otherwise you are using an extra-Biblical source as your authority.

 

[mrtumnus]

The "living consulting with the dead" is not really consulting with the dead. Do you think that witches and mediums are really contacting dear long lost Aunt Bess? No. They are either lying (which is often the case) or if they really DO get in contact with someone, it's a demon and not the dead person. We cannot contact the dead. We cannot consult with the dead. The dead have nothing to do with contact (hearing or communicating with) the dead.

I don't see what's so hard for anyone to understand.

The dead are deaf to our cries. The dead do not hear our prayers. Our prayers are only to be directed to God. If we pray to anyone or anything else, it is idolatry and a sin. Period.

What you have said regarding that "it is not the dead person" they contact is completely contradicted by the Bible. The medium actually contacted Samuel, not a demon pretending to be Samuel.

I would agree that we are not supposed to consult with the dead. This is quite different than requesting someone within the living family of God to pray for us.

You insist on limiting the word "pray" to your personal preference for a definition and then judging people by it. Is it too much to ask that you actually respond to what people really mean -- humbly requesting others to pray for us -- which happens to be not only a legitimate definition for the word pray but the primary one? Anything less than addressing the real question and not the false one you keep wishing to put forward and then acuse people of "idolatry" makes any reasonable discussion much more difficult.

 

[mrtumnus]

Yes, Mary was the mother her Lord. She was the mother of the earthly body of Christ. She was His mother. However, as we've spoken of forever in the past, she was not the mother of God - giving origin to the divinity of Christ. He was from before Mary was ever even conceived.

The queen referred to in Psalms is not a queen mother, but the bride of Christ. Yes, there were queen mothers just as there are queen mothers in monarchies today - but they are not the ruling queen. There is a large difference. Scripture is clear to point out when it's a queen mother or a queen.

Interestingly enough, Jeremiah 7:18 says some pretty strong things about a "queen of heaven" - who was a god that was worshiped by many. Also Jeremiah 44 continues the story.

Just something to think about.

Saying that Mary is the Mother of God does not mean that she was the contributor of his divinity. She was the contributor of the humanity of Jesus; the Holy Spirit the contributor of the divinity.

But Mary was the mother of the person Jesus, not just his earthly body. Jesus had two natures -- fully human and fully divine in one person. This is known as the hypostatic union. It occurred at the conception of Jesus, and from that moment he was fully human and fully God, and one person.. To believe Mary gave birth to only the "human" part of Jesus means Jesus was filled with the Logos, not was the Logos. Also known as the heresy of Nestorianism.

And a point about the "before" Mary was even conceived -- we have "before". God does not. Mary has always been conceived in the omnipresence of the Almighty God.

And yes Jeremiah says some pretty strong things about the "queen of heaven". Have you not ever heard that Satan has a counterfeit of everything? Just because there was a false queen of heaven people worshipped-- how can you conclude that means there isn't a real queen of heaven?

Continuing with that logic, what do you then conclude because people worshipped false gods?

 

[mrtumnus]

If you don't know if the "queen mother" is at Christ's right hand, that should be reason enough not to pray to her. Do you pray to her just in case she is there? Even if she is there, what authority does she have? You will find nothing in scripture saying that there is a queen mother sitting at Christ's right hand. That is only your opinion and you're not even sure about that.

I am absolutely sure about that. I do not profess that the "Bible-alone" is the sole authority and so therefore I can believe nothing that is extra-Biblical. For those that do -- it would seem to me that the most you can say is that you don't know. And my opinion is -- this is not extra-Biblical at all. It is quite apparent.

What is in Scripture is the foreshadowing of the kingship of Christ through the Jewish kings of the old covenant. People view their multiple wives as equivalent to the bride of Christ -- the church. And the mother was the queen who sat at the right hand of her son. In the fulfilled new covenant -- that would be Mary as the queen of the kingdom of Christ sitting at his right hand.

Mary first and foremost has the authority of any other glorified Christian -- her prayers on our behalf.

Mary has unique authority in interceding with her son. We see this foreshadowed in the old covenant between Bathsheba and Solomon. We see this fulfilled in the new covenant with the wedding at Cana. Mary intercedes for the young couple who are out of wine. She brings their need to Christ, and he responds.

And if you are using the limited definition of the word 'pray', then technically I do not pray "to Mary". I pray with her, in the presence of all the angels and saints in the New Jerusalem.

 

[mrtumnus]

Israel's queen was referred to as the "queen mother." She was the mother of the king. Although the mother of David did not occupy that office, so far as we know, the mother of Solomon did. Bathseba sat on a throne next to Solomon. 1 Kings 2:19. We see this rather unique Israeli office of queen mother again in 1 Kings 15:13 (Maacah, mother of King Asa) and 2 Kings 10:13 (the unnamed mother of King Jehu).

Zenas, thank you for these additional scriptures. And from what I see from 1 Kings, Maacah was not the mother of King Asa but was his grandmother, the mother of David? It appears that the mother of David was indeed the queen mother.

11 Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as his father David had done. 12 He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made. 13 He even deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down and burned it in the Kidron Valley.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas, thank you for these additional scriptures. And from what I see from 1 Kings, Maacah was not the mother of King Asa but was his grandmother, the mother of David? It appears that the mother of David was indeed the queen mother.

11 Asa did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as his father David had done. 12 He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made. 13 He even deposed his grandmother Maacah from her position as queen mother, because she had made a repulsive Asherah pole. Asa cut the pole down and burned it in the Kidron Valley.

The reference to David as the father of Asa is idiomatic. Here is the actual genealogy:
David, king of all Israel
Solomon, son of David, king of all Israel
Rehoboam, son of Solomom, king of Judah, the Southern Kingdom
Abijah, son of Rehoboam, king of Judah
Asa, son of Abijah, king of Judah

So Asa was really the great-great grandson of David. As for the practice of having a queen mother, it seems to have continued until the captivity. In most cases when a new king is introduced his mother is also named.
Hezekiah, whose mother's name was Abi. 2 Kings 18:2.
Manasseh, whose mother's name was Hephzibah. 2 Kings 21:1.
. . . .
Zedekiah (the last king of Judah), whose mother's name was Hamutal. 2 Kings 24:18.

For anyone who is interested, here is a complete genealogy of the kings of Isreal and Judah: http://www.ldolphin.org/kings.html

 

[Alive in Christ]

Mrtumnus...

You posted:

Now, please give me your understanding of these Scriptures...

Be glad to...

"Romans 2:7
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.""

God will grant eternal life to those people because they embraced Christ through faith alone, and God granted fruit in their lives.

"Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

The will of the Father is that they embrace Christ through faith alone. Many people cry "Lord Lord", but they have never been born of the Spirit.

"Matthew 3:10
"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.""

Anyone who never produced fruit...never were born again.

"Matthew 7:26
"But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.""

Things will not go well for us, in this life, if we ignore Gods way of living.

"Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Born again people, who have recieved Christ through faith alone, have "obeyed" Him by recieving Christ, and will indeed be led into rightiousness through the indwelling Christ.

"1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

Unprofitable in this life.

"1 Corinthians 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."

Love is the greatest of the fruits of the Spirit.

"1 John 2:24
The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That man is only *saying* that He knows God. If he has no sensitivity...ZERO...to the things of God...he is an imposter.

"1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him."

Because they have recieved Christ through faith alone, and are producing fruit.

"1 John 3:14-15
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."

If someone says that he is a christian, but wants nothing to do with Gods people, and has no love for them, is decieved and is an imposter.

"1 John 3:24
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

The indwelling Holy Spirit causes us to produce fruit.

"James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

James is adressing the issue of a mans faith being profitable here on earth. Effective. Fruitfull. Evident to others. The man is viewed by others as being a godly man, and "justified" in that sense, in their eyes

"John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

A completely fruitless professing christian is, in fact, no christian.

"John 25:26
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me."

If a person loves his life...the life of sin and without Christ...so much that he never embraces Christ...He will die lost.

"Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

That is the "Judgement seat of Rewards"(for the saved) and NOT the Great White Throne judgment.(for the damned)

"Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.""

Living Gods way will certainly lead to a rich and rewarding life here and now.

"Titus 1:16
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good."

Never saved. The lost.

"Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Referring to Gods "parental" fogiviness...in this life...and not Gods "judicial" forgiviness. Regarding salvation, every sin the christian has ever committed, or WILL commit, was...past tense...forgiven 2000 years ago in the cross.

"Matthew 31:46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Christians do those kind of things.(the positive ones), and they do them because of their love for Christ. They see Christ in others. And they are sensitive to Christs leading. By living that way, it blesses Christ. It just comes out of us. It HAS to...for Christ is living in and through us.

Lost people, who have never been born again, have no interest is being sensitive to Christs leading, because they do not have Him living in them..

Matthew 23:35
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.""

The scriptures are clear that God our Father will chastise us in this life if and when we behave like a lost person, which we no longer are.



:godisgood:

 

[Zenas]

Very good, Alive in Christ. If you don't like what the Bible says about something, change the paradigm so it fits with your preconceived beliefs. No only do you win the debate, you get the satisfaction of knowing God is on your side. But I have to wonder, with all the Bible translations we have, why do none of them actually say what you think they say? It seems terribly devious of the translators to think they put words on paper that don't really say what they mean.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Zenus,

"Very good, Alive in Christ. If you don't like what the Bible says about something, change the paradigm so it fits with your preconceived beliefs."

I wish the Romish church, mrtumnus, and others would stop doing that.

"No only do you win the debate, you get the satisfaction of knowing God is on your side."

You have it backwards. Its up to us to be on Gods side, not the other way around. The Catholics and Catholic apologists need to heed that.

"But I have to wonder, with all the Bible translations we have, why do none of them actually say what you think they say?"

They do. Can you not read? Can you not see?

"It seems terribly devious of the translators to think they put words on paper that don't really say what they mean."

The translators did not give us the scriptures, friend. God did.



:godisgood:

 

[grace56]

You have it backwards. Its up to us to be on Gods side, not the other way around
QUOTE]


If it's up to us isn't that a work?



Grace

 

[Alive in Christ]

Grace,

"If it's up to us isn't that a work?"

Nope. Not in the least.



:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

Matt...



You friend would expect you to help keep it clean. He would not be happy if you didnt. But He would of course not kick you out, for he offered it to you unconditionally.

But my actions would damage the relationship with my friend; he would be hurt and I would need to apologise to restore the relationship to fullness again

If one is born again, there is no "moving out"



Same thing...

I take it therefore that you're a Calvinist, then? What if I want to move out or choose to burn it down? I'm not my friend's prisoner am I, held against my will?

God offers justification to us unconditionally, other than faith in Christ. If we live like a lost person, God deals with us in this life. He counsels us through His word and Holy Spirit to "get with the program" and live consistently with who we are. He also might chastise and discipline us, if needed, for we are his eternally secure children. (Hebrews 12)

Mike


[/quote]

 

[annsni]

But my actions would damage the relationship with my friend; he would be hurt and I would need to apologise to restore the relationship to fullness again







I take it therefore that you're a Calvinist, then? What if I want to move out or choose to burn it down? I'm not my friend's prisoner am I, held against my will?

God offers justification to us unconditionally, other than faith in Christ. If we live like a lost person, God deals with us in this life. He counsels us through His word and Holy Spirit to "get with the program" and live consistently with who we are. He also might chastise and discipline us, if needed, for we are his eternally secure children. (Hebrews 12)

Mike


[/FONT]

[/QUOTE]

If you were truly a friend, you wouldn't WANT to move out.

 

[mrtumnus]

Alive in Christ, thank you for your answers. My general response is that along with the lines of Zenas -- it seems to be quite a lot of thoughts and words added to the text to move from a clear meaning of what is said to what you believe it means.

Replies back on a few of them:

"James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

James is adressing the issue of a mans faith being profitable here on earth. Effective. Fruitfull. Evident to others. The man is viewed by others as being a godly man, and "justified" in that sense, in their eyes

The implication of St. James is that such a faith is not a “saving faith”, not just merely lacking in evidence to others. What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

"Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."

That is the "Judgement seat of Rewards"(for the saved) and NOT the Great White Throne judgment.(for the damned)

Please explain how you make this determination? The phrasing is identical to Matthew 25 -- "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory”, which is a clear judgment of both the saved and unsaved, coincidentally based upon what they have done. Some receive eternal life and some are damned.

"Matthew 19:17
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.""

Living Gods way will certainly lead to a rich and rewarding life here and now.

The question Jesus was answering here was “Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life.” There is no indication that Jesus was answering a different question than asked.

"Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

Referring to Gods "parental" fogiviness...in this life...and not Gods "judicial" forgiviness. Regarding salvation, every sin the christian has ever committed, or WILL commit, was...past tense...forgiven 2000 years ago in the cross.

I’ve asked a couple of different times for where Scripture states this???? Peter refers to our having being cleansed of our “past sins”.

Your position also makes the Lord’s prayer a “dead prayer” not a living prayer. According to you, it is unnecessary to ask God for forgiveness after being saved.

"John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

A completely fruitless professing christian is, in fact, no christian.

This along with John 15:1
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

Your response to this certainly puzzles me the most. Can you please explain how someone who is not or has never been a true Christian became a branch “in Christ”?