The Catholic Church can't be THE Church because...

[mrtumnus]

You have it backwards. Its up to us to be on Gods side, not the other way around
QUOTE]


If it's up to us isn't that a work?



Grace

Guess that all depends on what you think a 'work' is exactly? Certainly seems a little 'participatory' to me.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Mr Tumnus,

"Alive in Christ, thank you for your answers. My general response is that along with the lines of Zenas -- it seems to be quite a lot of thoughts and words added to the text to move from a clear meaning of what is said to what you believe it means."

Wrong. We dont interpret scripture in isolation. Scripture must fit together like a hand in a glove. I was interpreting those passages of scripture with the whole of scripture in mind.

You posted...

"Originally Posted by Mr. Tumnus
"Matthew 19:17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.""

And I said...

"Living Gods way will certainly lead to a rich and rewarding life here and now."

And you now say...

"The question Jesus was answering here was “Teacher, what must I do to get eternal life.” There is no indication that Jesus was answering a different question than asked."

Then why didnt you include the entire quote....including the question he was asked.....when you posted it???

In light of the question, the interpretation could be 1 of 2 options, either of which would be applicable.

1) From the perspective of a Jew asking how to gain eternal life, Jesus would share with them to keep the commandments, since the purpose of the Law is to cause a man to see his hopelessness and drive Him to Christ.

2) From the perspective of a non-Jew, "the commandments" would be the command to embrace Christ through faith alone.

You posted...

"Originally Posted by Mr. Tumnus
"Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.""

And I said...

"Referring to Gods "parental" fogiviness...in this life...and not Gods "judicial" forgiviness. Regarding salvation, every sin the christian has ever committed, or WILL commit, was...past tense...forgiven 2000 years ago in the cross.

You now say...

"I’ve asked a couple of different times for where Scripture states this????"

Hebrews 12: 7-11, among others, gives clear truth regarding Gods "parental" fogiviness that has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

"Peter refers to our having being cleansed of our “past sins”.

We (christians) have been cleansed of our past sins. And our future sins. ALL sins have been forgiven, and the sinless rightiousness of Christ has been imputed to us.

"Your position also makes the Lord’s prayer a “dead prayer” not a living prayer."

Neither I nor anyone else can make the Lords prayer or any other prayer "dead" or "living". If some repeats a prayer mantra like....its dead. if someone prays a hear felt prayer its...living.

"According to you, it is unnecessary to ask God for forgiveness after being saved."

Not for salvation it isnt. To say that we must "ask forgiviness" for our sins in that sense, or to pray a million Hail Holy Queen prayers, or light a hundred candles, or pray a hundred rosaries, etc etc etc is to slap Jesus in the face and consider His dying on that cross a worthless thing.

While on that cross God "laid upon Him the iniquty of us all". And when Christ cried IT IS FINISHED, He meant it. The forgiviness of our sins...past, present and future, was accomplished.

You posted...

"John 15:2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."

And I said...

"A completely fruitless professing christian is, in fact, no christian."

You now say...

"Your response to this certainly puzzles me the most. Can you please explain how someone who is not or has never been a true Christian became a branch “in Christ”?"

Because they "hooked up" with Christ in a superficial way. Joined a church. Got water baptized. Ate a cracker every sunday. Went to confession. Worshipped Mary. Or, if protestant...joined some bible studies, got invloved with some programs or ministries,. etc etc.

But they NEVER entered in by Christs one way...justification through faith alone....

"For it is by grace that you are saved, through faith. And that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

:godisgood:

 

[mrtumnus]

Alive in Christ,

John 15:1-2 1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.


I asked how someone who is not or has never been a true Christian became a branch “in Christ".

You said -- Because they "hooked up" with Christ in a superficial way. Joined a church. Got water baptized. Ate a cracker every sunday. Went to confession. Worshipped Mary. Or, if protestant...joined some bible studies, got invloved with some programs or ministries,. etc etc.

But they NEVER entered in by Christs one way...justification through faith alone....


A few very big problems with the logic here.

If they NEVER entered into Christ, then they cannot be a branch IN CHRIST.

Either they are in Christ, or they are not. "Superficial" implies they are putting on a show so others will think they are in Christ, but they really are not.

Christ says they are in him. While "superficial" might fool other people into thinking someone is in Christ, Christ would indeed know their actions were superficial and they really are not "in him". He says that are IN ME.

And, if they are not really in Christ, then the Father can't really cut them out, can He? Nor would there by any need to.

 

[mrtumnus]

Alive in Christ, the Scripture I have been seeking is the one that says once we are 'saved', all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven regardless of how we choose to live.

2 Peter 1:1-11
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In addition, Paul issues a stern warning that "whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup."

For what purpose?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Mrtumnus,

"Alive in Christ, the Scripture I have been seeking is the one that says once we are 'saved', all our sins, past, present and future are forgiven regardless of how we choose to live."

Only one?

Here are several...

"Jeremiah 32:38-41 (Concerning the Promise of the New Covenant) "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul."

1John 2:19, 1John 3:6,9

(as explained above)

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (Combine this with Jeremiah 32:40 above)

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Romans 6:8 "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

Romans 8:9-10 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 2:28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

1Cor 1:8,9 "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."

1Cor 3:15 "If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

"2Cor 1:21,22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

Ephesians 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--"

Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,"

Eph 1:13,14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were placed in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-- to the praise of his glory."

Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

1Pet 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (xref Eph 1:14)

1John 5:4 "for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith."

Let me just say one thing, along with posting Gods word up there, Mrtumnus.

I can not stress to you enough the importance that you...DO...NOT...LET...OTHERS...DO...YOUR...THINKING...FOR...YOU.

I know its tempting, because they seem so *holy* and so *religious* and so *Pious*

They are lying to you, Mrtumnus. Dont let them get away from it.

THINK...THINK...THINK...THINK...THINK...for yourself!!!

Ask God to OPEN your eyes. He will do it.

"And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the scriptures."

:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

Grace,



Nope. Not in the least.



:godisgood:

Explain why.

 

[Matt Black]

I take it therefore that you're a Calvinist, then? What if I want to move out or choose to burn it down? I'm not my friend's prisoner am I, held against my will?

God offers justification to us unconditionally, other than faith in Christ. If we live like a lost person, God deals with us in this life. He counsels us through His word and Holy Spirit to "get with the program" and live consistently with who we are. He also might chastise and discipline us, if needed, for we are his eternally secure children. (Hebrews 12)

Mike

So I am a prisoner, then? I can be held in the house against my will? What kind of a friendship is that?

 

[Matt Black]

If you were truly a friend, you wouldn't WANT to move out.

Oh, I don't know: if I was truly hacked off with my friend or with life in general, I might.

 

[annsni]

Oh, I don't know: if I was truly hacked off with my friend or with life in general, I might.

So one who has become a lamb of the Shepherd - who has had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and had their hearts made alive for God can get ticked off at Him and leave? Wow - then God's pretty weak and His making us a "new creation" is just temporary until we decide to do otherwise.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

So one who has become a lamb of the Shepherd - who has had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and had their hearts made alive for God can get ticked off at Him and leave? Wow - then God's pretty weak and His making us a "new creation" is just temporary until we decide to do otherwise.

so is "one who has become a lamb of the Shepherd" incapable of sinning?

 

[Matt Black]

So one who has become a lamb of the Shepherd - who has had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and had their hearts made alive for God can get ticked off at Him and leave? Wow - then God's pretty weak and His making us a "new creation" is just temporary until we decide to do otherwise.

So, one who has become a lamb of the shepherd is held in the sheep-pen against his or her will? Wow - then God's some kind of jailer, then, and overrides our free will.

 

[annsni]

So, one who has become a lamb of the shepherd is held in the sheep-pen against his or her will? Wow - then God's some kind of jailer, then, and overrides our free will.

No - a true lamb of the Shepherd will never want to leave the fold. If they do, they're a goat.

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, so now we're automata

 

[Alive in Christ]

Boy, oh boy.

The depth of confusion being displayed by Matt and Doubting Thomas and a few others is just stunning.

Very sad. My heart and prayers go out to you guys.

Dig into the scriptures yourself guys...forget your hierarchial *HEADQUARTERS* and all of their proclamations!

Go straight to God yourself! He will personally teach you and "grow" you. He is very good at that. Listen to others, but dont let them do your thinking for you.



:godisgood:

 

[Matt Black]

No confusion here at all. I've been down the sola Scriptura route and it plain doesn't work.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

No confusion here at all. I've been down the sola Scriptura route and it plain doesn't work.

Let’s give AiC the benefit of the doubt Matt. I’m sure AiC came to all his convictions all own his lonesome. Without the aid of any denominational setting…no Sunday school growing up, youth group or young adult Sunday school, no preaching…and let’s assume as well that AiC has no study reference bible(s), is an expert in the Greek and has no biblical commentaries from his favorite protestant authorities.

Forget the Church Matt, who needs the Church and her fathers that died defending the faith. All we need is the Bible…KJV of course, a cup of hot joe from Starbucks and (don’t tell anyone Matt, the TBN channel) and we’re set.

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[David Lamb]

I've been down the sola Scriptura route and it plain doesn't work.

I have too, and it does! Oh, I know you will argue that it can't work, because those who claim to believe it disagree among themselves. But that argument doesn't really hold water, because it does not affect the the question. Relying on God's Word as our ultimate authority does not depend on our perfect and unanimous understanding of scripture.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I have too, and it does! Oh, I know you will argue that it can't work, because those who claim to believe it disagree among themselves. But that argument doesn't really hold water, because it does not affect the the question. Relying on God's Word as our ultimate authority does not depend on our perfect and unanimous understanding of scripture.

It’s extremely hard for me to believe that all your theological beliefs are self taught straight from scripture without the aid of any outside influences. Not possible.

Today’s protestant Church has taken sola scriptura to a whole new definition, to a more reformed notion of only that which is in Scripture. They’ve moved away from the Martin Luther intention of that which is not in conflict with Scripture.

In XC
-

 

[annsni]

Wow. Scripture alone - Scripture standing on it's own doesn't work? God's Word is incomplete and we need man's ideas to complete it? We need tradition to understand it - or to make it complete.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[David Lamb]

Let’s give AiC the benefit of the doubt Matt. I’m sure AiC came to all his convictions all own his lonesome. Without the aid of any denominational setting…no Sunday school growing up, youth group or young adult Sunday school, no preaching…and let’s assume as well that AiC has no study reference bible(s), is an expert in the Greek and has no biblical commentaries from his favorite protestant authorities.

Forget the Church Matt, who needs the Church and her fathers that died defending the faith. All we need is the Bible…KJV of course, a cup of hot joe from Starbucks and (don’t tell anyone Matt, the TBN channel) and we’re set.

ICXC NIKA
-

It seems you misunderstand the idea of sola scriptura. Your caricature says that belief in sola scriptura means throwing out all Christian youth groups, all preaching, all Sunday schools, all study bibles, all bible commentaries, and so on. That is not the case at all. Those things only have authority insofar as what they teach agrees with what is in the bible. If a sunday school superintendent says, "I don't believe in such a thing as sin," or if a preacher says, "Jesus Christ is not the only way to God," by no stretch of the imagination could those things be backed up from scripture. The SS superintendent and the preacher could not say, as the prophets of old did, "Thus says the Lord!"

Also, you say, "KJV of course". Why? There are plenty of people on this Board (and many who are not BB members, of course) who use other versions, yet believe in sola scriptura. I have no idea what "hot Joe" or the TBN channel might be, but I somehow doubt that they are part and parcel of the doctrine of sola scriptura! :laugh: