The Catholic "Salvation"

[GraceSaves]

Wait..wait...

If we are not Baptist (a given), then our beliefs differ from yours (a given), which makes those beliefs in your eyes false (a given), and we are not allowed to share our "false beliefs" (stated above)...

...then why is not every thread on this board closed down?

Could the moderator please explain why this board is called: "Other Religions / Doctrines" when the moderator considers such people to be rude for talking about their "other religions/doctrines"?

 

[Justified Saint]

No Singer, there is no salvation outside the Body and Church of Christ. Again, there is only one gospel message, one truth, and consequently one church. The Truth matters and it hurts too I guess.

Mockery,denial, an attempt at humor to divert the question by J.S.

Just doing what you guys do best.

 

[GraceSaves]

It's quite simple, really.

Does a Baptized Catholic HAVE to be Confirmed or receive the Eucharist to enter Heaven? No. Baptism is the only sacrament NECESSARY for salvation.

All people Baptized in the Trinitarian forumla (which makes it a Sacrament) have received a valid CATHOLIC baptism. They have received the sacrament, that indellible mark. They are now in incomplete communion with the Catholic Church.

Christ wants all to be in full communion with His mystical body, the Church. However, do to impediments, some do not achieve this full communion. Ignorance of Christ's Church is one such. However, willful ignorance is not an excuse.

The Gospel message is proclaimed from Christ's Church, which has the fullness of revealed Truth. All who proclaim the Gospel, even if incomplete, receive it from the Church, the "pillar of Truth." Therefore, any saved person is saved THROUGH the Catholic Church, whether they recognize this fact (because of ignorance) or not.

 

[Brother Adam]

"Baptism is the only sacrament NECESSARY for salvation."

And on top of that- the Catholic church recognizes that there may be some who won't have the chance to be baptized, but intention was there (baptism by martyrdom). In the end, it is all left up to the judgement and mercy of God.

You see, if you would actually take the time to learn without assuming you already know what the Catholic Church teaches, you'd be amazed at what you'd learn.

Again for DHK's clarification, I'm not Catholic.

 

[Brother Adam]

In that you are completely wrong. I sought out the truth in the bible and then sought out a local group of Christians that did the same. I weeded through most in the area and found the one that seemed to follow the scriptures the closest. In the end the Baptist church was the one I joined. If I ever move again the search will be conducted in the same manner, but this time with the knowledge that a Baptist church is going to be the most likely place, so I'll put more focus on that denom when looking. (unless there's a few e-free churches in the area. )
Gina [/QB]

Excellent, so if I go and do the same thing and discover that the Christian Reformed Chruch fits the scriptures the closest in my opinion, will you accuse me of following a man-made religion or will have I followed the scriptures?

 

[Gina B]

Grace: If we are not Baptist (a given), then our beliefs differ from yours (a given), which makes those beliefs in your eyes false (a given), and we are not allowed to share our "false beliefs" (stated above)...

Gina: Differing from baptist beliefs does not neccessarily mean false beliefs. Nobody is perfect in their interpretation of the bible, and baptists recognize this. I am in a baptist church now where I differ in my belief on two doctrines. The church knows what I believe, I know what they believe. In one case we agree that it's not an important matter that should separate us and that it isn't something relevant to salvation. In the other, we've agreed that I would not promote the belief. Yeah it's hard to sit there and hear what I believe called false, but there is no human body of believers that is going to agree 100%. There are, however, key issues of importance that cannot be denied, such as the method of salvation and the concept that humans make errors and do not have the authority to claim themselves as the final authority.
Nobody said you weren't allowed to discuss your false beliefs. Discussing them and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.

Grace: ...then why is not every thread on this board closed down?

Gina: Discussing beliefs and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.


Grace: Could the moderator please explain why this board is called: "Other Religions / Doctrines" when the moderator considers such people to be rude for talking about their "other religions/doctrines"?

Gina: Discussing beliefs and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.

 

[Gina B]

Adam, for clarification can you explain your denominational status? Are you baptist, Catholic, undecided, other?
Thanks.
Gina

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Adam, for clarification can you explain your denominational status? Are you baptist, Catholic, undecided, other?
Thanks.
Gina

No problem- what my profile says is true- I hold mainly to Baptistic doctrines. (probably about 90-95% of what is in Charles Rylies Basic Theology book, I can agree with). So I consider myself Baptist.

The question I asked in my last post was hypothetical.

 

[GraceSaves]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Nobody is perfect in their interpretation of the bible, and baptists recognize this.

So Christ gave us an infallible book that we can't be certain of what teachings lay inside? You even admitted that it is "their" interpretation, as if each person's goal in their Christian life is to determine what exactly God is teaching, instead of their being an objective source of Truth. But then you claim that the Bible is an objective source of Truth. But then you say that nobody can perfectly interpret the Bible. But then...

See the circle you've created?

Originally posted by Gina L:
In one case we agree that it's not an important matter that should separate us and that it isn't something relevant to salvation.

So where again was it that Christ said that people were to decide for themselves what is relevant for salvation or not? Objective Truth, anyone? Anyone?

Originally posted by Gina L:
In the other, we've agreed that I would not promote the belief.

So you hold dearly to a belief that is unimportant and cannot promote in your Church. That makes a lot of sense.

Originally posted by Gina L:
Yeah it's hard to sit there and hear what I believe called false, but there is no human body of believers that is going to agree 100%.

Well there goes the theory that Scripture interprets itself...

Originally posted by Gina L:
There are, however, key issues of importance that cannot be denied, such as the method of salvation and the concept that humans make errors and do not have the authority to claim themselves as the final authority.

Instead, as you have stated, God just expects you to do the best you can with the infallible book that cannot infallibly be understood. That makes sense.

Originally posted by Gina L:
Nobody said you weren't allowed to discuss your false beliefs. Discussing them and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.

I must have missed the part where a bunch of Baptists asked how they could sign up to be Catholics. Last I checked, the post was a discussion of why a Baptist or other Protestant would see the necessity of entering the Catholic Church. It was a doctrinal discussion on what is important to believe, not a membership drive.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In that you are completely wrong. I sought out the truth in the bible and then sought out a local group of Christians that did the same. I weeded through most in the area and found the one that seemed to follow the scriptures the closest. In the end the Baptist church was the one I joined. If I ever move again the search will be conducted in the same manner, but this time with the knowledge that a Baptist church is going to be the most likely place, so I'll put more focus on that denom when looking. (unless there's a few e-free churches in the area. )
Gina

Excellent, so if I go and do the same thing and discover that the Christian Reformed Chruch fits the scriptures the closest in my opinion, will you accuse me of following a man-made religion or will have I followed the scriptures? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What is the Christian Reformed Church? We have a church here named the Christian Reformed Church. It's basically the same as mine apart from Calvinistic teachings.
However, the issue is the Catholic church. No you would not be right because you would have to go outside of the bible for completion of the taught doctrines.
Gina

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In that you are completely wrong. I sought out the truth in the bible and then sought out a local group of Christians that did the same. I weeded through most in the area and found the one that seemed to follow the scriptures the closest. In the end the Baptist church was the one I joined. If I ever move again the search will be conducted in the same manner, but this time with the knowledge that a Baptist church is going to be the most likely place, so I'll put more focus on that denom when looking. (unless there's a few e-free churches in the area. )
Gina

Excellent, so if I go and do the same thing and discover that the Christian Reformed Chruch fits the scriptures the closest in my opinion, will you accuse me of following a man-made religion or will have I followed the scriptures? </font>[/QUOTE]What is the Christian Reformed Church? We have a church here named the Christian Reformed Church. It's basically the same as mine apart from Calvinistic teachings.
However, the issue is the Catholic church. No you would not be right because you would have to go outside of the bible for completion of the taught doctrines.
Gina [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]So if we get really honest then, the Baptist Church is the true Church as Christ intended it?

Or at least, Baptist doctrine, is closer to what God would have us believe than any other set of doctrines?

 

[Gina B]

Grace: So Christ gave us an infallible book that we can't be certain of what teachings lay inside? You even admitted that it is "their" interpretation, as if each person's goal in their Christian life is to determine what exactly God is teaching, instead of their being an objective source of Truth. But then you claim that the Bible is an objective source of Truth. But then you say that nobody can perfectly interpret the Bible. But then...

See the circle you've created?

Gina: Nope, I see no circle.
Yes, God gave us his infallible doctrines. No, we are not infallible in our interpretation of each and every word contained in them. It's really not that hard to understand.
Each Christian's goal in life is to go and teach of Jesus crucified, not to perfectly interpret every nuance of scripture. Study is important, but bickering over everything we don't come to perfect agreement on WITHING THE BIBLE is not.

Grace:

In one case we agree that it's not an important matter that should separate us and that it isn't something relevant to salvation.

So where again was it that Christ said that people were to decide for themselves what is relevant for salvation or not? Objective Truth, anyone? Anyone?

Gina: Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not be ashamed. He didn't say to decide for ourselves, he said to seek the scriptures and find the truth there, not to seek out the Pope or other writings as our final answer.

Grace:

Originally posted by Gina L:
In the other, we've agreed that I would not promote the belief.

So you hold dearly to a belief that is unimportant and cannot promote in your Church. That makes a lot of sense.

Gina: Exactly. Why doesn't that make sense to you? There is no church on this earth that is perfect. The belief is not unimportant, it's relevance to salvation and the teaching of it, which is THE most important doctrine there is and the focus of our Christian lives, that is what it is not relevant to.

Grace:

Yeah it's hard to sit there and hear what I believe called false, but there is no human body of believers that is going to agree 100%.

Well there goes the theory that Scripture interprets itself...

Gina: Who gave out that theory? LOL! Don't roll your eyes back too far, they might get stuck like that.

Grace:

Originally posted by Gina L:
There are, however, key issues of importance that cannot be denied, such as the method of salvation and the concept that humans make errors and do not have the authority to claim themselves as the final authority.

Instead, as you have stated, God just expects you to do the best you can with the infallible book that cannot infallibly be understood. That makes sense.

Gina: YES! God expects our best from us, what we can give to him through following him, not through following other teachings and people when they disagree with the plain teachings in the bible.
I'm about the eye thing...

Grace:

Originally posted by Gina L:
Nobody said you weren't allowed to discuss your false beliefs. Discussing them and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.

I must have missed the part where a bunch of Baptists asked how they could sign up to be Catholics. Last I checked, the post was a discussion of why a Baptist or other Protestant would see the necessity of entering the Catholic Church. It was a doctrinal discussion on what is important to believe, not a membership drive. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Gina: Discussing beliefs and attempting to turn people on a baptist board away and into Catholocism are two very different things.

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gina L:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In that you are completely wrong. I sought out the truth in the bible and then sought out a local group of Christians that did the same. I weeded through most in the area and found the one that seemed to follow the scriptures the closest. In the end the Baptist church was the one I joined. If I ever move again the search will be conducted in the same manner, but this time with the knowledge that a Baptist church is going to be the most likely place, so I'll put more focus on that denom when looking. (unless there's a few e-free churches in the area. )
Gina

Excellent, so if I go and do the same thing and discover that the Christian Reformed Chruch fits the scriptures the closest in my opinion, will you accuse me of following a man-made religion or will have I followed the scriptures? </font>[/QUOTE]What is the Christian Reformed Church? We have a church here named the Christian Reformed Church. It's basically the same as mine apart from Calvinistic teachings.
However, the issue is the Catholic church. No you would not be right because you would have to go outside of the bible for completion of the taught doctrines.
Gina </font>[/QUOTE]So if we get really honest then, the Baptist Church is the true Church as Christ intended it?

Or at least, Baptist doctrine, is closer to what God would have us believe than any other set of doctrines? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I really don't know. In my area I found this to be the case. I'm quite sure it may be different in some other cities and areas of the world.
Gina

 

[Brother Adam]

I really don't know. In my area I found this to be the case. I'm quite sure it may be different in some other cities and areas of the world.
Gina [/QB]

Okay, thank you.

One last question.

Is it okay for anyone on this board to misrepresent or purposefully lie about the teachings of any faith including Baptist, Catholic, any other Christian, or non-Christian faith, when that person is both specifically told and shown through documentation or explaination, that they are misrepresenting or libeling some doctrine or belief in that faith?


If it is not okay, what is the consequence for someone who continues to violate this?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by thessalonian:

I recommend you leave the expounding on Catholic faith to us. You like to twist it to suit your agenda of hatred of the truth.

I really don't consider you the expert that you say you are. I know what experiences I have. I also have a copy of Vatican II documents, a copy of the Catechism, and some other sources, all of which say that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. Where would you like me to begin?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

I find it funny that on this thread you will present them and on another thread you will whine about what CCC 841 has to say (which is out of Vat II documents). We can of course go round in circles but it is clear that you do not understand the Catholic faith and that will only be more clear. You have already started out poorly by misquoting the teaching. Here it is, cut and pasted out of the CCC "Outside the Church there is no salvation" . Of course you will distort this to your hearts content, ignore the nuances (because to you judging all mankind is so easy we don't need God to do it. We can do it in the comfort of our own homes

) and plead ignorance of invincible ignorance of which I am doudful that you qualify, but I am not your judge. So let the circles begin if you wish.

I may participate if I have time.

Blessings

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Justified Saint:
[QB] No Singer, there is no salvation outside the Body and Church of Christ. Again, there is only one gospel message, one truth, and consequently one church. The Truth matters and it hurts too I guess.

You're just about there, J.S.

You're referring to the Catholic Church above, (I think), but Catholics will seldom print the name "Catholic" in such responses. You're trying to skirt the issue without skirting the issue.

Now, tell me that salvation is not possible to those who attend Non-Catholic Churches and I'll be satisfied that you're a total Exclusivist !

**That was the belief of those who wrote the Vatican Council II.

Singer

 

[dumbox1]

Now, tell me that salvation is not possible to those who attend Non-Catholic Churches and I'll be satisfied that you're a total Exclusivist !

**That was the belief of those who wrote the Vatican Council II.

Singer,

If you're trying to ascribe your "total Exclusivist" position to the Second Vatican Council, you've got it exactly backwards. You might give "Lumen Gentium" a look -- paragraphs 14-16 in particular. In their entirety.

Mark

 

[Brother Adam]

Singer, I know your not dumb, so maybe this just hasn't been asked the right way.

You have been pushing the "no salvation outside the church" clause very hard, I'm wondering though, why you don't take into consideration that the catachism is not refering to the rolls of Church membership, but being united to the church through which Catholics teach that if you have been baptized you are indeed united to the Catholic Church.

What say ye?

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I really don't know. In my area I found this to be the case. I'm quite sure it may be different in some other cities and areas of the world.
Gina

Okay, thank you.

One last question.

Is it okay for anyone on this board to misrepresent or purposefully lie about the teachings of any faith including Baptist, Catholic, any other Christian, or non-Christian faith, when that person is both specifically told and shown through documentation or explaination, that they are misrepresenting or libeling some doctrine or belief in that faith?


If it is not okay, what is the consequence for someone who continues to violate this? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I believe it would be immoral of someone to truly lie purposefully about something, stating it as truth if they know the bible presents it as false.
What should the consequences be? I suppose in the end that is between them and God in the majority of cases. It's hard at times to differentiate between what one honestly believes and whether or not they are lying about it. In most cases on this board I feel that people are being honest about what they believe, whether what they believe a lie or not.
Not all documentation and explanation is accurate and able to be trusted. Sometimes the actions of a group as a whole more closely reflect and state their beliefs than any amount of documentation and explanation can do.
For example, if I go to a church which states on their records they believe that evangelisation is the most important thing a believer should do and find that hardly anybody is evangelising, I'm going to assume what was written is false and what they truly believe is that evangelizing is not important.
Another example was in the mormon church. I was told that "salvation" was for all. Everyone goes to heaven, although on different levels according to their works. Later I was told that by leaving the mormon church one is damned and condemned to outer darkness, as the mormon church believes it is the one and only true church. I can point you to documents that state all are saved, and then I can point you to other works STILL IN THEIR OWN WORKS that deny that.
In the end one mormon could tell me the church believes in the salvation of all, another could tell me that they believe some people go to outer darkness. Who would be lying?
The correct answer is the whole mormon church is lying and teaching false doctrine. It not only contradicts itself, it contradicts the BIBLE.
Gina

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Singer, I know your not dumb, so maybe this just hasn't been asked the right way.

You have been pushing the "no salvation outside the church" clause very hard, I'm wondering though, why you don't take into consideration that the catachism is not refering to the rolls of Church membership, but being united to the church through which Catholics teach that if you have been baptized you are indeed united to the Catholic Church.

What say ye?

There's more to it than rolls? I guess it IS said that man cannot live by bread alone...
Sorry, that was bad. Couldn't resist temptation...
Gina