The Catholics are not lost

[Agnus_Dei]

I notice that you are a member of a Catholic

Sorry, but it's not I that you see on a Catholic Board, maybe some Orthodox boards, but under a different screen name.

I came up with my screen name as I was splashing around in the Tiber, but would like to change it...

InXC
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[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Agnus_Dei Scripture says that God answers the prayers of the righteous, right? So how much more righteous are those in heaven than those here on earth?

This sort of popped out at me.

Those in heaven are not one bit more righteous than those of us on earth who have placed our faith in Jesus Christ.

Because.....all believers, whether on earth or in heaven, have been justified by the blood of Christ and now have the righteousness of Christ, which is why all believers can go boldly before the throne of God.

I, Amy, can and do go boldly before God each day because when God looks at me, he sees the righteousness of Christ. There is no other high priest except Him and He is my personal and only intercessor.

Jesus taught that we should pray for one another, which is why we do. It's not for His sake that we do it, but for our own. It is one of God's ways that teaches us to focus on Him first, and others second.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Those in heaven are not one bit more righteous than those of us on earth who have placed our faith in Jesus Christ.

Oh dear...where to start...

InXC
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[ajg1959]

This sort of popped out at me.

Those in heaven are not one bit more righteous than those of us on earth who have placed our faith in Jesus Christ.

Because.....all believers, whether on earth or in heaven, have been justified by the blood of Christ and now have the righteousness of Christ, which is why all believers can go boldly before the throne of God.

I, Amy, can and do go boldly before God each day because when God looks at me, he sees the righteousness of Christ. There is no other high priest except Him and He is my personal and only intercessor.

Jesus taught that we should pray for one another, which is why we do. It's not for His sake that we do it, but for our own. It is one of God's ways that teaches us to focus on Him first, and others second.

Amy, up until now I agreed with what you were saying.

We are only righteous in spirit. In the flesh we are still dirty rotten sinners...but we are now forgiven sinners. I go to God in prayer each day too...but not boldly, I go humbly. When I either die or am raptured, then I will leave this fleshly body behind, and then all that will be left is the righteousness of Christ, and then, only then can I go boldly before the throne.

How do you go to the throne in the flesh anyway? The white throne judgement hasnt happened yet.

AJ

 

[DHK]

We are only righteous in spirit. In the flesh we are still dirty rotten sinners...but we are now forgiven sinners. I go to God in prayer each day too...but not boldly, I go humbly. When I either die or am raptured, then I will leave this fleshly body behind, and then all that will be left is the righteousness of Christ, and then, only then can I go boldly before the throne.

How do you go to the throne in the flesh anyway? The white throne judgement hasnt happened yet.

AJ

As a believer in Christ I will never appear at the Great White Throne Judgement.
As a believer in Christ I come boldly before the throne of God.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, up until now I agreed with what you were saying.

We are only righteous in spirit. In the flesh we are still dirty rotten sinners...but we are now forgiven sinners. I go to God in prayer each day too...but not boldly, I go humbly. When I either die or am raptured, then I will leave this fleshly body behind, and then all that will be left is the righteousness of Christ, and then, only then can I go boldly before the throne.

How do you go to the throne in the flesh anyway? The white throne judgement hasnt happened yet.

AJ

We don't go before the throne in the flesh, because.......


Jhn 4:24 God [is] Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

 

[Whowillgo]

AD, I cannot tell from your responses whether you really believe what you say or whether you simply say things. What I can tell is that you have a lot of confusion in your life over what you believe. You have a good vocabulary and much superficial knowledge but you do not understand Catholic or even to a great extent Orthodox doctrine, arguement and debate do not enhance understanding . I truly will pray that you take the time to stop seeking the ultimate denomination and seek the ultimate savior.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Sorry, but it's not I that you see on a Catholic Board, maybe some Orthodox boards, but under a different screen name.

I came up with my screen name as I was splashing around in the Tiber, but would like to change it...

InXC-

I just checked your profile on the Catholic Community Forum. You only made 2 posts in 2 years, so maybe you had forgotten you joined.

This Agnus-Dei is also 37, an uncomfortable protestant, and a mechanical designer. Do you have an identical twin?

To change your profile...go to 'User CP' at the top of each page, click on it and a small screen will come down. Click on 'Change Profile'. Don't forget to hit 'save' before you leave your new profile.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus,

"Originally Posted by Amy.G....

"Those in heaven are not one bit more righteous than those of us on earth who have placed our faith in Jesus Christ."

And you said...

"Oh dear...where to start...

How bout by believing and accepting that great truth? Thats usually the best place to start.


From Romans...

" 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;"

This is the doctrine of imputed rightiousness. God knows that we can never be rightious in and of ourselves, so in His great provision...along with so many other blessings...He has imputed the rightiousness of Jesus Christ....to us...

"3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.


5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.

What a great God we serve! \o/


Mike

 

[ajg1959]

As a believer in Christ I will never appear at the Great White Throne Judgement.
As a believer in Christ I come boldly before the throne of God.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/QUOT


Yes, I mixed up my judgements, but I hold to my basic idea that we are only righteous in spirit and corrupt in flesh, and that we should go humbly before God.

My in laws are charismatic and they really believe that they are righteous in the flesh. They "boldly" go to to God and "command" Him to do this and to do that.

I am afraid to go boldly because in the flesh I know I am unworthy, and it concerns me that some christians think that they are somehow holy and righteous.

But, that is your relationship with God, and not mine.

I have to work out my own salvation daily, I am happy for you if you do not.

AJ

 

[DHK]

As a believer in Christ I will never appear at the Great White Throne Judgement.
As a believer in Christ I come boldly before the throne of God.

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.[/QUOT


Yes, I mixed up my judgements, but I hold to my basic idea that we are only righteous in spirit and corrupt in flesh, and that we should go humbly before God.

My in laws are charismatic and they really believe that they are righteous in the flesh. They "boldly" go to to God and "command" Him to do this and to do that.

I am afraid to go boldly because in the flesh I know I am unworthy, and it concerns me that some christians think that they are somehow holy and righteous.

But, that is your relationship with God, and not mine.

I have to work out my own salvation daily, I am happy for you if you do not.

AJ

Coming boldly before the throne of grace is the NT privilege that the OT saints did not have. In the OT only the High Pries could enter into the holy of holies and make an atonement for the people, on the Day of Atonement, and that was once a year. We have that privilege (to enter right before God) at any time we want. That is the truth that the author of Hebrews is teaching--that privilege of coming right before God at any time. It is also called the "priesthood of the believer."

I also agree with you that when we do appoach God we ought to be very humble about it. We need to beseech God. The Bible says that God desires a humble and a contrite spirit.
No man can command God. He is not a god that one can put into their pocket and pull out at any time to do one's will and whim at any time. He is not there fulfill the desries of the flesh. He does not give us all our desires or wants. He has promised to provide for our needs, but he is the one that knows what our needs are. Often we pray for what we believe a need is, and the Lord doesn't answer the way we want him to. But God knows best, and we must trust him.
All things work together for good to them that love God to them that are called according to his purpose.

 

[D28guy]

ajg,

"My in laws are charismatic and they really believe that they are righteous in the flesh. They "boldly" go to to God and "command" Him to do this and to do that."

We are completly rightious in Gods eyes because of Christs rightiousness being imputed to us. Your inlaws are certainly in error if they think that their flesh is completely rightious. That will never occur in this life.

The Pentecostal and Charismatic branches of Christianity have much to offer the Body of Christ. They certainly offer some truths and gifts that other branches mistakenly dismiss.

But the pentecostal/charismatic branch of christianity has its excesses and errors just like all the other branchs. Your inlaws seem to be caught up in one of the excesses.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All Roman Catholics who do not renounce their 'Catholic faith', are lost, I believe. I cannot see how Christ would have shed his blood as excuse for and as object of idolatry, one reason for example.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK
"Coming boldly before the throne of grace is the NT privilege that the OT saints did not have. "

GE
You are a Baptist, are you not, DHK?
I cannot believe my eyes!
You tell me how Adam and Eve managed after their fall; how Able found favour in the eyes of God; how Enoch walked with God, etc. etc until every saint of OT times has been mentioned. While I would not have hesitated to say it to any other person in this big world, gave he me your talk, I say it to you: This is an abominal claim!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DHK
"Coming boldly before the throne of grace is the NT privilege that the OT saints did not have. "

GE
You are a Baptist, are you not, DHK?
I cannot believe my eyes!
You tell me how Adam and Eve managed after their fall; how Able found favour in the eyes of God; how Enoch walked with God, etc. etc until every saint of OT times has been mentioned. While I would not have hesitated to say it to any other person in this big world, gave he me your talk, I say it to you: This is an abominal claim!

We have access to the throne of Grace because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament saints did not have access to that throne. They were visited upon by the angel of the Lord, God, or the Holy Spirit but never had true access to the throne as we do today. DHK has not made an abominable claim. He gave Scripture that clearly says because of the shedding of Christ's blood, we have access.

 

[DHK]

DHK

You are a Baptist, are you not, DHK?
I cannot believe my eyes!
You tell me how Adam and Eve managed after their fall; how Able found favour in the eyes of God; how Enoch walked with God, etc. etc until every saint of OT times has been mentioned. While I would not have hesitated to say it to any other person in this big world, gave he me your talk, I say it to you: This is an abominal claim!

Believe it GE. And study the Word.
From Adam onward, all men needed a blood sacrifice in order to approach God.
Abel brought a "proper sacrifice" acceptable to God. It was a "blood sacrifice," of his own flocks.
But Cain did not do so. He brought of his own field--wheat, or other grains.
It was not acceptable in God's sight. Cain was upset and ended up killing Abel.
In order for man to approach God in OT times they had to come to God through a blood sacrifice.

Christ is our sacrifice. He was sacrificed once for all. There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Therefore we can come boldly before the throne of grace, whereas before the cross believers could not.

 

[Matt Black]

I read part of it, but I didn't find anything that would change what the Council of Trent had said. Could you please show me where it would?
Surely your capable of telling me.

Here is the article in question

Council of Trent Session XI CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.

And the Lutheran signatories of the Joint Declaration would agree with that, as I said above, as would most thoughtful Protestants, if they paused and thought about it. Otherwise you're back to the scenario wherein all you have to do is 'pray the Sinner's Prayer', respond to an altar call, 'invite Jesus into your life', 'accept Him as your personal Saviour' or however you want to describe it, as a one-off event, and then go back to the heroin and hookers and everything's hunky-dory.

I don't think so...

 

[Matt Black]

Matt,



Well, I'm disapointed in you Matt. As far as I can recall, this is the 1st time you have sunken to Agnus Dei's level. Congratulations.

In the past you have been above it to some extent.

To demand that a *specific word* be included in a passage of scripture makes both of you come across as childish, petty, and disenguinuous.

It certainly doesn't if you hang your entire soteriology on a word which doesn't exist in Scripture

Here are 2 passages of scripture among the multitudes...





Those are 2 passages of scripture among the hundreds that clearly proclaim Gods truth that we are justified and saved in one and only one way...

By grace ALONE, through faith ALONE, in Christ ALONE.

'Cept for one little thing: the word 'alone' ain't there. Why are you quoting, nay capitalising, a word that isn't there, and then basing your soteriology upon this absentee word??! I find that somewhat bizarre to say the least....

And Matt or Agnus Dei...

I can anticipate your response:



Utter nonsense....so please spare us.

Mike

Hardly. Otherwise James has got it wrong, hasn't he? So has Paul elsewhere in the Pauline passages Agnus cited. So, of course, has Jesus in Matt 24. Guess He didn't get your memo....On reflection, as a follower of Jesus Christ, I'd rather trust His words than the opinions of men

 

[ajg1959]

Coming boldly before the throne of grace is the NT privilege that the OT saints did not have. In the OT only the High Pries could enter into the holy of holies and make an atonement for the people, on the Day of Atonement, and that was once a year. We have that privilege (to enter right before God) at any time we want. That is the truth that the author of Hebrews is teaching--that privilege of coming right before God at any time. It is also called the "priesthood of the believer."

I also agree with you that when we do appoach God we ought to be very humble about it. We need to beseech God. The Bible says that God desires a humble and a contrite spirit.
No man can command God. He is not a god that one can put into their pocket and pull out at any time to do one's will and whim at any time. He is not there fulfill the desries of the flesh. He does not give us all our desires or wants. He has promised to provide for our needs, but he is the one that knows what our needs are. Often we pray for what we believe a need is, and the Lord doesn't answer the way we want him to. But God knows best, and we must trust him.
All things work together for good to them that love God to them that are called according to his purpose.

DHK

I just see so many people use this passage of scripture (going boldly to the throne) in an arrogant manner. Somehow, I dont think this is the way it was intended when it was written.

Maybe it could mean that we shouldnt be afraid to go to God, and that we have a right to, but I dont think it means to go with pride.

AJ

 

[Pastor Larry]

And the Lutheran signatories of the Joint Declaration would agree with that, as I said above, as would most thoughtful Protestants, if they paused and thought about it.

This may be true, but no Bible believer would agree with that, since the Bible teaches otherwise.

Otherwise you're back to the scenario wherein all you have to do is 'pray the Sinner's Prayer', respond to an altar call, 'invite Jesus into your life', 'accept Him as your personal Saviour' or however you want to describe it, as a one-off event, and then go back to the heroin and hookers and everything's hunky-dory.

No you are not. You are clear misunderstanding the biblical doctrine of sola fide. This is the type of stuff that makes conversation very difficult. The attempt to paint sola fide against antinomianistic unbelief is a false dichotomy. There is a third option, namely, biblical salvation through true saving faith.

Matt, have you read Sproul's Faith Alone?