The certainty of God's Foreknowledge?

[skypair]

And you prodivded a perfect example why. You continue to insist, and did the past, in repeating the calumny that because a person refers the doctrines of grace as Calvinism, or themselves as Calvinists, that they are following men.

I am merely agreeing with Paul when he says the Corinthians are "carnal" 1) because they have divisions and 2) because they say "I am of Paul" -- or Calvin, or "doctines of grace" (which we know where that comes from). So if it makes conversation virtually impossible, it is not that I am unscriptural -- it is that you refuse to abide by what we both agree is our primary source of truth without using your own jargon that is produced by men. And again I say, the devil doesn't care if you refer to scripture as long as he is the one providing the definitions.

I know -- you are offended at that remark. I know you are saying to me, "Thou shalt never wash my feet." But I say, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part of me." This is something Christians do for Christians -- keep them from the errors of this world. You never in a million years on your own would have discovered that God predestined our salvation. Our election - yeah. Salvation - no. Do you see how defintions matter?

Calvinism/"doctrines of grace" is a very clever ruse, RB. It claims to be looking at the same flag and seeing red on white rather than white on red. But instead they are looking at a different flag altogether.

No, I don't believe that infants who die in infancy, and are elect, don't believe.

They "believe?" So "belief" to you doesn't involve ANY cognitive capability at all???

Nor do I believe they are saved in any other manner than the same way anyone who is saved or ever will be saved, is saved.

So even YOU, like an infant, do not understand the gospel? I'm going to let you rethink that statement, RB. You couldn't be saying what I am hearing --- that both you and infants are able to be saved without understanding anything of the gospel. Are the "elect" saved though ignorant, RB???

I have referenced Spurgeon's sermon on the subject of Infant Salvation numerous times on this board and his views are reflective of my own.

Again, that is wonderful if you want to refer to men for your opinions. But you are talking about opinions, not TRUTH, RB.

skypair

 

[Outsider]

Brother RB,

I hope all is well today.

Down through time, greater men than us have debated this issue with no luck in changing the others mind. That is why I do not try to change anyone, I just simply share with them what I see in scripture and give them what I feel the Lord has given me. As I have stated before, we are called to do a work and the Lord equips us for our work.

The main problem I have with the Calvin/Arminian debate is that in most cases, both sides try to prove their side by disqualifying the other. After all, I see it all the time. The best way to lift yourself up, is to knock somebody else down. I do not agree with this. But you would have to agree with me, it isn't right but it is the popular way.... for both sides.

That is what I cherish about our conversation. We want desperately for the other to accept our views, but with love and respect, we do it by presenting our case and not by belittling each other or our views. That is rare on this board, and I thank you for this opprotunity.

Something was said in another post and I am hoping this will better let you understand my position. Some things have been said, (not just on this thread) that has struck a button with me. See if you can understand what I am saying when I put it in this manner:
It is believed that all the elect are believers and all that believe are elect. I disagree. I do not see the Calvinist doctrine like many do. I don't deny it at all cost. I actually embrace the doctrine. I believe it and accept it. Just not in the manner most do. I see that true calvinist have it correct, up to a point, but then they stop short of the full message of the gospel.
The arminians do the same. They are driven to oppose the calvinist doctrine and are being blind by the beauty that is in it.

For instance, The calvinists limit God's saving grace to the elect. The arminians limit the power of the sacrifice by leaving it man's hands. I ask you brother, is God limited? He doesn't have a set of standards in which to work in, He is the standard. God is not limited yet we try to limit Him. His words are not to restrict His grace but to increase it. I hope you understand what I am saying.

We are caught in a battle. Some take the Words of scripture but ignore the message. Some grasp the message but do not keep value in the Word. This is confusion and we know who the author of confusion is. You see some of the things that go on here on this board. The way brothers and sisters speak to one another. Who do you think that is pleasing, God or the devil?

I try to understand the Word and the message it sends. I find in the Word that God does indeed have His elect. I do not know who they are, but He does. I also find that His word and message is sent out to all. He will save them that believe.

Look at how quickly people accepted the testimony in the NT. I find that 3,000 believed in one day. In the church you worship at, how many professed faith in the past year??? The reason is because we are too busy trying justify ourselves and our beliefs that we limit the message. No one will admit it, because we are always the one in the right..... (And yes, I am preaching to myself as well as to others).
Those that are lost are confused. We Christians are not helping. But then again, the Calvinists will say if they are elect, they will come and the Arminians will say it is their choice, they can come if they want to. Lets not blindly attempt to limit the gospel. Lets preach it like the Apostles did. Lets lead people to Christ, not hinder them.

God bless good brother. At this time I see His grace go beyond the elect. His saving grace is open for all who believe. Remember, I am a former 5 pointer myself, so I it is hard for me to say these things - :laugh:

Hope to talk to you soon. God bless and many blessings.
By the way, I will try to respond to some of your questions later.

 

[Outsider]

canadyjd,

Hi friend. I am not ignoring you. I have a funeral to attend so I will talk with you later and would love to discuss this issue with you.

God bless and many blessings!!!

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I know -- you are offended at that remark. I know you are saying to me, "Thou shalt never wash my feet." But I say, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part of me." This is something Christians do for Christians -- keep them from the errors of this world. You never in a million years on your own would have discovered that God predestined our salvation. Our election - yeah. Salvation - no. Do you see how defintions matter?

I surely hope your not refering to yourself when you write, "If I wash the not, thou hast no part of me." If so, I am quite content to have no part with you my friend.

They "believe?" So "belief" to you doesn't involve ANY cognitive capability at all???

You didn't read Spurgeon's sermon did you...

So even YOU, like an infant, do not understand the gospel? I'm going to let you rethink that statement, RB. You couldn't be saying what I am hearing --- that both you and infants are able to be saved without understanding anything of the gospel. Are the "elect" saved though ignorant, RB???

You obviously didn't read the sermon I referenced.

Again, that is wonderful if you want to refer to men for your opinions. But you are talking about opinions, not TRUTH, RB.

Once again, you prove my point. Reply to me all you want Skypair. I have indulged this conversation momentarily just to get my point accross that I will not dialogue with you on this subject or any other matter.

 

[Rippon]

I surely hope your not refering to yourself when you write, "If I wash the not, thou hast no part of me." If so, I am quite content to have no part with you my friend.

I did a double-take on that one by SP myself. Even for his normally extreme views this one went way too far. Methinks he has a Messiah-complex.

 

[canadyjd]

I surely hope your not refering to yourself when you write, "If I wash the not, thou hast no part of me." If so, I am quite content to have no part with you my friend.

I did a double-take on that one by SP myself. Even for his normally extreme views this one went way too far. Methinks he has a Messiah-complex.

Rippon and ReformedBaptist.

One of the reasons I rarely reply to SP is that he once told me that if I disagreed with his interpretation of scripture, God could consider that to be blaspheming Holy Spirit.

I see little reason to engage him.

peace to youraying:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Hey Outsider,

I hope you are doing well in the Lord. May the Lord give you peace and comfort by His Spirit if the funeral you attended was of a loved one, and may He comfort those who mourn the loss.

For instance, The calvinists limit God's saving grace to the elect. The arminians limit the power of the sacrifice by leaving it man's hands. I ask you brother, is God limited? He doesn't have a set of standards in which to work in, He is the standard. God is not limited yet we try to limit Him. His words are not to restrict His grace but to increase it. I hope you understand what I am saying.

Before I make a comment here, I would also like to say a word about what is seen on the boards. Because of how Christians have treated each other on the boards I stayed away for a number of months. At times, I got caught up in the strife myself. I have returned because I enjoy the dialogue. It challenges me and causes me to think deeper through my views. I also hope that something I write may serve to encourage another believer. You will notice that I just stay out of dialogue with those with whom I think the dialogue will turn to strife and be of no value to them, me, or anyone on the board.

Our conversation is different. And I am thankful for that.

Of course God is not limited. Yet He cannot lie. Does this limit God? No. Like you said, He is the standard and cannot deny Himself. Concerning His Word(s), that is, Holy Scripture, my aim in them is to go no further than they go, and also not to retreat from where they go. If the Scripture teaches us that His salvation is for His people alone, then that is what I will believe and confess.

Look at how quickly people accepted the testimony in the NT. I find that 3,000 believed in one day. In the church you worship at, how many professed faith in the past year??? The reason is because we are too busy trying justify ourselves and our beliefs that we limit the message. No one will admit it, because we are always the one in the right..... (And yes, I am preaching to myself as well as to others).
Those that are lost are confused. We Christians are not helping. But then again, the Calvinists will say if they are elect, they will come and the Arminians will say it is their choice, they can come if they want to. Lets not blindly attempt to limit the gospel. Lets preach it like the Apostles did. Lets lead people to Christ, not hinder them.

I took your advice, and look again at Acts 2. Truly an amazing demonstration of the power of God in the Gospel. As many as gladly received the word of the Aposltes were baptized, and they continued steadfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayers. Hallelujah.

I believe, if my recollection is correct, we had 5-6 souls added to the church. But I am not sure how our beliefs, be it as it may that we are calvinists, limit the message. We preach Christ and Him crucified and compel and plead with all to repent and believe the Gospel. Those who are "pricked in their heart" do so.

So, I am not sure how we (or I) am hindering them?

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I surely hope your not refering to yourself when you write, "If I wash the not, thou hast no part of me." If so, I am quite content to have no part with you my friend.

I did a double-take on that one by SP myself. Even for his normally extreme views this one went way too far. Methinks he has a Messiah-complex.

Methinks you have a wrap quote problem. :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Outsider]

Please notice that Jesus does not say they are not His sheep because they did not believe (which would support your position), but He says they do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

The cause (not His sheep) results in the effect (do not believe). The reason they reject Him is because they are not of His sheep

JD,
I want to restate the fact that I do find where Christ has His elect. If anyone denies this I simply believe they covet a position more than they do the Word. Understand that I am not saying this is you, but I have encountered many who quote one scripture and sweep another under the rug or worse (Mis use what they refuse to accept).

Staying with the 10th chapter of John, lets look at some scripture:
: 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
: 7 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Christ is talking to Pharisees. He is making it very clear that they are not His sheep. By doing this, He tells us that He does indeed have sheep. He knows them and they know Him and follow Him.

Now lets consider these:
9:41 If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
10:25 I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Christ lets them know that He has told them the truth and they didn't believe.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
This alone should prove AoA. Until Christ calls, they are covered. When He does, there is no covering. That aside, this is where we will (Most likely) differ. You may say that it is a general call. Keep in mind, you may say that, others may say that, but does Christ say it? The only thing general about Christ's call, is that it goes out to everyone. The call He effectually gave you, He gave the one that turned away. I find no evidence in scripture where He "Half" done anything.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now, we can avoid it, distort it or we can except it. There are different roads to take, which do you choose. Christ spoke plainly, He draws all to Him. He tugs at everyone's heart.....Effectually. He loves us all. He loves the world.

I hope we have established that He has His sheep and that He calls everyone effectually. The question is, can those that were not given to Him, become sheep?
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Is He talking about Israel and Gentiles? Maybe He is fortelling this, but why would He tell non-elect goats? He is preaching to them. Calling them what they are.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Here we see Christ telling us what the Will of God is. That He should lose none that the Father gives Him (Elect) and He will raise them up in the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Who is talking about now? Is He repeating Himself because He wanted to make sure everybody heard? I see Him giving us another will of the Father. Those that see and believe. Thomas saw and believed and was blessed. I think Christ spoke a blessing to even those that do not see and believe. It is clear that these will be raised in the last day too.

Going back to the Pharisees in chapter 10. Look at what Christ tells them.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture
Not only does He refer to Himself as the door of the sheep (v 7), He also refers to Himself as the door. And by the door, if any man enter in, he shall be saved.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
I ask you friend, why would He say this to non-elect goats? So He could condemn them?
The Pharisees knew His work, but they wouldn't believe and trust. This is what they knew about the work of Christ:
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

They knew that if it didn't stop, all would believe. They followed the devil instead of following Christ. Jesus has done enough for all men to believe.
He has called all men and done enough work for all to believe. The chief priests and Pharisees even knew that. All don't believe because they love darkness and they are following the devil.

I hope you understand my position. Study the scripture and what God gives you accept it. That doesn't mean I am saying I know more or less than you or anyone else here. What God gives you, rejoice in it because He has work for you to do with the love and knowledge He has blessed you to have. Trust God, as I believe you do.

God bless and many blessings!!!!

 

[Rippon]

I observe more errors from non-Cals on the BB than I can shake a stick at.

OS: The effectual call that the Lord gives to some is also "effectual"to those who turn away?! I'm sorry. Words mean things to me. There is no such thing as an effectual call which is ineffectual.That's just plain nonsensical.

Another thing -- how can you claim that His call goes out to everyone. Do you realize how all-inclusive the word "everyone" is?His call goes out to those who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel?!

I don't have time to address the rest of your post right now.Later.

 

[Outsider]

Brother RB,

Our conversation is different. And I am thankful for that.

Me too. What a blessing to discuss the Word and be thankful.

Of course God is not limited. Yet He cannot lie. Does this limit God? No. Like you said, He is the standard and cannot deny Himself. Concerning His Word(s), that is, Holy Scripture, my aim in them is to go no further than they go, and also not to retreat from where they go. If the Scripture teaches us that His salvation is for His people alone, then that is what I will believe and confess.

Amen. I agree. But if salvation is free to all those that believe, I want to accept it. Consider Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I believe, if my recollection is correct, we had 5-6 souls added to the church. But I am not sure how our beliefs, be it as it may that we are calvinists, limit the message. We preach Christ and Him crucified and compel and plead with all to repent and believe the Gospel. Those who are "pricked in their heart" do so.

So, I am not sure how we (or I) am hindering them?

Brother, forgive me if thats the way it sounded. I by no means were referring to you or your church. I was speaking to us Christians. To steal scripture from Paul "Of which I am chief". As a whole, we Christians need to be about our Father's business.
Give you an example: Read in Acts and see what they went through to deliver the gospel. Can we imagine what they had to endure? They met every night and ate together and sang songs and praised the Lord. Multitudes of people were believing and turning to Christ.
Now, I want to ask a question. You don't have to answer, but think about it. This is not just for you and me, but for all that read this post. How many people did you invite to come to church last week? In the last month? Another question, how many members in your church do you only see and talk to at church?

This was my point. I think we all fall short in this area. They set the example, are we following it? In general, we have no problems in telling someone what is right or wrong, why we are this and they are that, etc... But do we humbly and sincerley ask? Do we truley desire to see new people come to our churches? We may say it, but do we show it. God not only told us He loved us, He showed us too.

God bless good brother and many blessings!!!

 

[Outsider]

I observe more errors from non-Cals on the BB than I can shake a stick at.
I would hope you would believe that. If you believed the other way and called yourself a calvy, you would have major issues

OS: The effectual call that the Lord gives to some is also "effectual"to those who turn away?! I'm sorry. Words mean things to me. There is no such thing as an effectual call which is ineffectual.That's just plain nonsensical.
Its not ineffectual, it accomplishes something.

Another thing -- how can you claim that His call goes out to everyone. Do you realize how all-inclusive the word "everyone" is (Spoken like a true calvy)?His call goes out to those who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel?!
Yes. Maybe not in the manner we are a customed to. Consider Rahab. When Israel went to spy out the land, she knew who they were and what they were there for. So did everybody else. How did they know?
The Holy Spirit speaks to them, just as it did you. It beared witness to them, just as it did you.

I don't have time to address the rest of your post right now.Later.

John 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 11: 45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.

Why did Jesus perform this miracle? Are we being Pharisees or disciples?

 

[Rippon]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He draws all to Him. He tugs at everyone's heart.....

Rip :Drawing is not tugging. They are not equivalents. You need to refresh yourself about drawing in John 6:37,39,43,and 65.

Regarding John 12:32, the word "men" isn't in the original. Neither is people. It can be translated as "mine".

He loves us all. He loves the world.

Rip : Question. Does God love those whom He hates? Of course not. The Bible speaks of God hating certain people -- therefore He does not love each and every person, past,present and future.

I hope we have established that He has His sheep and that He calls everyone effectually.

Rip : Christ indeed has His own sheep -- and that does not mean every person head-for-head.Some are not sheep. ( See John 10:26 and Matthew 25:31-46).

He does not call everyone effectually. Effectual calling means that a given person is elect of God. That person is drawn by the Father to Jesus and will inherit eternal life. If, as you state, that the Lord calls everyone effectually -- then every single person is saved -- Universal Atonement.


The question is, can those that were not given to Him, become sheep?

Rip : No. Absolutely not. Only those who are given ( John 6:37 ) are sheep. No one "becomes a sheep". One becomes a believer, but one can not become a sheep.

 

[Allan]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He draws all to Him. He tugs at everyone's heart.....

Rip :Drawing is not tugging. They are not equivalents. You need to refresh yourself about drawing in John 6:37,39,43,and 65.

Regarding John 12:32, the word "men" isn't in the original. Neither is people. It can be translated as "mine".

He loves us all. He loves the world.

Rip : Question. Does God love those whom He hates? Of course not. The Bible speaks of God hating certain people -- therefore He does not love each and every person, past,present and future.

I hope we have established that He has His sheep and that He calls everyone effectually.

Rip : Christ indeed has His own sheep -- and that does not mean every person head-for-head.Some are not sheep. ( See John 10:26 and Matthew 25:31-46).

He does not call everyone effectually. Effectual calling means that a given person is elect of God. That person is drawn by the Father to Jesus and will inherit eternal life. If, as you state, that the Lord calls everyone effectually -- then every single person is saved -- Universal Atonement.


The question is, can those that were not given to Him, become sheep?

Rip : No. Absolutely not. Only those who are given ( John 6:37 ) are sheep. No one "becomes a sheep". One becomes a believer, but one can not become a sheep.

Here is you a question Rip:
Can God both love and hate the same person?

 

[Allan]

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
He draws all to Him. He tugs at everyone's heart.....

Rip :Drawing is not tugging. They are not equivalents. You need to refresh yourself about drawing in John 6:37,39,43,and 65.

Regarding John 12:32, the word "men" isn't in the original. Neither is people. It can be translated as "mine".

He loves us all. He loves the world.

Rip : Question. Does God love those whom He hates? Of course not. The Bible speaks of God hating certain people -- therefore He does not love each and every person, past,present and future.

I hope we have established that He has His sheep and that He calls everyone effectually.

Rip : Christ indeed has His own sheep -- and that does not mean every person head-for-head.Some are not sheep. ( See John 10:26 and Matthew 25:31-46).

He does not call everyone effectually. Effectual calling means that a given person is elect of God. That person is drawn by the Father to Jesus and will inherit eternal life. If, as you state, that the Lord calls everyone effectually -- then every single person is saved -- Universal Atonement.


The question is, can those that were not given to Him, become sheep?

Rip : No. Absolutely not. Only those who are given ( John 6:37 ) are sheep. No one "becomes a sheep". One becomes a believer, but one can not become a sheep.

I don't agree the calling is two seperate callings.

I believe they are one and the same call. However...

I think that is done to all in the same manner but only God's elect will respond to that call a certain way where as others will not.

It would be like serving to all people everywhere mashed potato's and homestyle gravy. Though it is given to all in the same way only some will respond positively it.

It is only a logical conclusion drawn up from a theological view that there are actually two callings. Scripture never divides it, but we do see where it affects some unto life and others to unbelief.

 

[Rippon]

Here is you a question Rip:

Rip : "Here is you a question"? Get some sleep Allan.

Can God both love and hate the same person?

Rip : Are you suggesting that God loved and hated Esau, for instance? No, emphatically ( remember the spelling) not. God hated Esau -- it's an everlasting hatred.

 

[Rippon]

I think that is done to all in the same manner but only God's elect will respond to that call a certain way where as others will not.

Why will the elect respond favorably to the calling?

 

[Allan]

Rip : Are you suggesting that God loved and hated Esau, for instance? No, emphatically ( remember the spelling) not. God hated Esau -- it's an everlasting hatred.

Yes I am (your misunderstanding of that verse not withstanding).

Another question: If a person is under the wrath of God would you agree they are hated? (ex "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction")

 

[Allan]

Why will the elect respond favorably to the calling?

For the same reason the elect will fall into sin.

 

[Rippon]

Another question: If a person is under the wrath of God would you agree they are hated?

Everyone, elect or non-elect comes into this world under the wrath of God. Ephesians 2:3b:"Like the rest,we were by nature objects of wrath."(NIV)

Since the elect and non-elect are both under His wrath ( the elect for a part of their lives -- and the non-elect everlastingly) I would say that God does not hate His elect ones.But He does hate the reprobate=non-elect.