The Changing Face Of Catholicism

[DHK]

I certainly have some appreciation for Martin Luther and the Reformers for their reasons for championing the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Hence the notion of sola scriptura, at least for the Lutherans, has changed over time...to the more reformed notion of "only that which is in Scripture" not the intention of the Lutheran confessions "that which is not in conflict with Scripture".

In XC
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As a Baptist I don't believe I use the term sola scriptura in the strictest sense of the word. It literally means "scripture alone."
I would rather define my stance as saying that "The Bible is my 'final' authority in all matters pertaining to faith and doctrine. Certainly I use, what I would call other "authoritative" material. But who has the final say? It is the Word of God every time. It is the only scripture, in that it is the only authority that is inspired. There is no tradition, no other authority that can claim inspiration. Only the Bible has that claim. That is why we can appeal to it, as our final and greatest authority.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

As a Baptist I don't believe I use the term sola scriptura in the strictest sense of the word. It literally means "scripture alone."
I would rather define my stance as saying that "The Bible is my 'final' authority in all matters pertaining to faith and doctrine.

Certainly I use, what I would call other "authoritative" material.

And what other authoritative material would that be?

In XC
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[DHK]

And what other authoritative material would that be?

In XC
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Almost everyone on this board, for example, would at least use a concordance.
That is a good example of an authoritative reference.
We also use lexicons and like materials.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Almost everyone on this board, for example, would at least use a concordance.
That is a good example of an authoritative reference.
We also use lexicons and like materials.

Oh oh! Then you can't be sola scriptura! Oh my!:laugh:

 

[DHK]

Oh oh! Then you can't be sola scriptura! Oh my!:laugh:

Yes indeed. That is why most Baptists define or re-define it as the Bible being "their final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine," instead of
"their only authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes indeed. That is why most Baptists define or re-define it as the Bible being "their final authority in all matters of faith and doctrine," instead of
"their only authority in all matters of faith and doctrine.

Nice shift. But then isn't that a sort of modern "oral tradition". If you don't understand a passage and you go to a comentary for clarification how is that different then saying the church tradition helps to understand bible passages better? Is Zondervan then the new tradition of christians?:smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Nice shift. But then isn't that a sort of modern "oral tradition". If you don't understand a passage and you go to a comentary for clarification how is that different then saying the church tradition helps to understand bible passages better? Is Zondervan then the new tradition of christians?:smilewinkgrin:

1. Our "primary" source of learning is the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to us who believe. That is of primary importance.
2. We are commanded to: Study to show ourselves approved unto God (2Tim.2:15); to "Search the Scriptures;" to "meditate on them day and night;" to "be ready always to give an answer" (Scripturally), etc. This takes much personal study, along with prayer.
3. Next to the Bible a diligent student would consult the closest thing to the Bible, which is the original language (not necessarily a commentary). That is a concordance, a lexicon, language helps. and other such tools.
4. Many of the authors of good commentaries are simply sermons of good preachers gone on before us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. These are sermons in print. However "older is better" philosophy is not necessarily true. Thus the ECF does not have any more weight than many conservative commentators today. In fact they had less light. Hindsight is always better than foresight.
5 "Tradition" in liturgical religions is often binding and thus leads to heresies. Therefore we have in the RCC, such heresies springing from Tradition as: purgatory, indulgences, the assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, praying to Mary and the other "saints," transubstantiaton, baptismal regeneration, and many other doctrines that come from tradition. Once declared a doctrine of the church, even if wrong, it cannot be changed. The religion is then steeped in religious superstition and heretical beliefs.
6. Because the Word of God is always of primary importance such heresies cannot creep into the church. The Word of God will not allow it. It reigns supreme. Tradition can never trump God Himself. God reveals Himself through His Word, not tradition or through any other means.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1. Our "primary" source of learning is the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit illuminating the Word to us who believe. That is of primary importance.
2. We are commanded to: Study to show ourselves approved unto God (2Tim.2:15); to "Search the Scriptures;" to "meditate on them day and night;" to "be ready always to give an answer" (Scripturally), etc. This takes much personal study, along with prayer.
3. Next to the Bible a diligent student would consult the closest thing to the Bible, which is the original language (not necessarily a commentary). That is a concordance, a lexicon, language helps. and other such tools.
4. Many of the authors of good commentaries are simply sermons of good preachers gone on before us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. These are sermons in print. However "older is better" philosophy is not necessarily true. Thus the ECF does not have any more weight than many conservative commentators today. In fact they had less light. Hindsight is always better than foresight.
5 "Tradition" in liturgical religions is often binding and thus leads to heresies. Therefore we have in the RCC, such heresies springing from Tradition as: purgatory, indulgences, the assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, praying to Mary and the other "saints," transubstantiaton, baptismal regeneration, and many other doctrines that come from tradition. Once declared a doctrine of the church, even if wrong, it cannot be changed. The religion is then steeped in religious superstition and heretical beliefs.
6. Because the Word of God is always of primary importance such heresies cannot creep into the church. The Word of God will not allow it. It reigns supreme. Tradition can never trump God Himself. God reveals Himself through His Word, not tradition or through any other means.

Ok to show ourselves approved workmen then we should learn Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac? Or are you saying just pick up a Strongs condordance? The Holy Spirit living in each christian then enlightens them to undertand scripture exactly as God intended? And if I disagree with you about a certain passage we must assume two things. 1. I don't know Greek as well as you. 2. The Holy Spirit in not enlightening me which calls into question my salvation? Is this correct. I think snake handlers are heretics but they claim a preminance in scripture. And as for older not being better because hindsite is 20/20; I wonder how true this statement is. Wine as it gets older is better. Police investigators feel that the closer to the source something is the more accurate the information is unless it comes from the horses mouth which is best of all. You make a very good point about doctrine not being revoked once it is established. Mariology in the Catholic church for instance is very recent (mid 1800's). Though there has been the practice of praying to Mary before that. And if my memory serves me right there were veneration to the saints very early in the church as well. We see it in the writings during the councils. I think the orthodox though disagree about Mary with the Catholics. Though they both agree that she is Theotokos. However, I wonder at the other beliefs that you hold. Trinity? two natures of Christ. Are these soley scripture based or council based? Do you believe that Jesus is Homoousius with the spirit and the father? Do you beleive there is a Hypostatic union going on. If you do then thats not bible language.

 

[DHK]

Ok to show ourselves approved workmen then we should learn Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac? Or are you saying just pick up a Strongs condordance?

The illustration given in 2Tim.2:15 is that of a carpenter putting together or making a piece of furniture. The degree of work he puts into the end product will determine on whether or not he will be ashamed of his work or not. It is your decision as to how much time you want to study God's Word and to what approach you take. The Lord wants due diligence as a workman. You answer to Him, not me.

The Holy Spirit living in each christian then enlightens them to undertand scripture exactly as God intended? And if I disagree with you about a certain passage we must assume two things. 1. I don't know Greek as well as you. 2. The Holy Spirit in not enlightening me which calls into question my salvation? Is this correct.

That depends on what you are studying. There is a difference in disagreeing on who the two witnesses are in Rev.11 and the meaning of "born again." If there is too much disagreement on the latter, then your salvation may be called in question, whereas on the former topic it really doesn't matter.

I think snake handlers are heretics but they claim a preminance in scripture.

What pre-eminence. In all the Bible there is only one reference, and that is in the last chapter of Mark. One verse in the Bible. Out of 31,173 verses there is only one that speaks on this particular subject!

And as for older not being better because hindsite is 20/20; I wonder how true this statement is. Wine as it gets older is better. Police investigators feel that the closer to the source something is the more accurate the information is unless it comes from the horses mouth which is best of all.

The older wine gets the more likely it is to turn into vinegar or even go mouldy. It naturally corrupts itself.
Often witnesses turn out to be unreliable. How honest are they in their reporting? Do they have an agenda? Many of the early writers (outside of the apostles) did.

You make a very good point about doctrine not being revoked once it is established. Mariology in the Catholic church for instance is very recent (mid 1800's). Though there has been the practice of praying to Mary before that. And if my memory serves me right there were veneration to the saints very early in the church as well. We see it in the writings during the councils. I think the orthodox though disagree about Mary with the Catholics. Though they both agree that she is Theotokos. However, I wonder at the other beliefs that you hold. Trinity? two natures of Christ. Are these soley scripture based or council based? Do you believe that Jesus is Homoousius with the spirit and the father? Do you beleive there is a Hypostatic union going on. If you do then thats not bible language.

I can believe in a doctrine without knowing its theological name. That is just nonsense.
My daughter believes she has an arm (or two); but she didn't know that she had an ulna and radius (the names of the two major bones that make up the arm). Your logic makes no sense.
BTW, theological twenty-five cent words are not what one calls "Bible language."

 

[BRIANH]

Ok to show ourselves approved workmen then we should learn Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac? Or are you saying just pick up a Strongs condordance? The Holy Spirit living in each christian then enlightens them to undertand scripture exactly as God intended? And if I disagree with you about a certain passage we must assume two things. 1. I don't know Greek as well as you. 2. The Holy Spirit in not enlightening me which calls into question my salvation? Is this correct. I think snake handlers are heretics but they claim a preminance in scripture. And as for older not being better because hindsite is 20/20; I wonder how true this statement is. Wine as it gets older is better. Police investigators feel that the closer to the source something is the more accurate the information is unless it comes from the horses mouth which is best of all. You make a very good point about doctrine not being revoked once it is established. Mariology in the Catholic church for instance is very recent (mid 1800's). Though there has been the practice of praying to Mary before that. And if my memory serves me right there were veneration to the saints very early in the church as well. We see it in the writings during the councils. I think the orthodox though disagree about Mary with the Catholics. Though they both agree that she is Theotokos. However, I wonder at the other beliefs that you hold. Trinity? two natures of Christ. Are these soley scripture based or council based? Do you believe that Jesus is Homoousius with the spirit and the father? Do you beleive there is a Hypostatic union going on. If you do then thats not bible language.

Veneration of the Saints usually finds its first support in the Martyrdom of Polycarp circa 190 AD. One issue with that is when one reads the passage all they truly say is that they took his bones and treated them with the utmost respect...something that even a...athesit would do!!!
Veneration persay...possibly mid third century.

 

[Marcia]

Sola Scriptura is that the Bible alone is God's written word for us. That makes it the final authority.

I do not consider a concordance or a commentary an authority - only a help that might be flawed, might not be. I don't consider any of the writings of the church fathers authoritative - only helpful. We can look to their writings and to the early church traditions as secondary sources of information, valid only if backed up by God's word.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Veneration of the Saints usually finds its first support in the Martyrdom of Polycarp circa 190 AD. One issue with that is when one reads the passage all they truly say is that they took his bones and treated them with the utmost respect...something that even a...athesit would do!!!
Veneration persay...possibly mid third century.

Just so you know I'm not supporting the consept just making an observation.

 

[BRIANH]

Just so you know I'm not supporting the consept just making an observation.

No problem. God bless