The "children of God" in John 11:51,52

[MB]

Here's the way I see it, and it makes no difference whether you see it from a Calvinist or non-Calvinist perspective/

The Calvinist believes God has chosen his own from the beginning. They will be saved, and there is no possibility that they will not, in time. Thus, in the mind of God, they are already sheep. It is correct that they are in a lost condition until they are saved. But there is no possibility that they will die in that condition. God will employ the means to bring them to repentance and faith.

The non-Calvinist holds that God chooses based on foreseen faith. God knows from eternity who will receive him by repentance and faith. There is no possibility that they won't. Thus, their salvation is assured from eternity. And in the mind of God, he may rightly call them His sheep.

I have no idea who told you this but I'm not a Calvinist and I do not believe that God elects gentiles before Salvation at all. The only ones that are elect before Salvation are Jews. and that election does not necessarily assure Salvation. Scripture does not say that any Gentile is elect.

So Jesus' reference to the "lost sheep" makes sense. They are not yet saved in time, but will be, thus he calls them sheep.

Even if I could accept men being the sheep of God before Salvation. Someone would have to show me in scripture how we can belong to God and Satan at the same time. Christ said we cannot serve two masters. For me there is no doubt that before I submitted myself to Christ I belonged to Satan.

Some of this is based on God's immutability and omnipotence. God doesn't change. he never has a new thought. What He knows today, He has always known. What He decides today, He has always decided.

I disagree. God never changes as He has always been God almighty and always will be. How ever God is not limited to man's ideas of Him. Nor is His omnipotence. Nothing is impossible with God. Scripture could not say all things are possible with God and it not be so.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
MB

 

[tileeba]

The diaspora was a past event. Therefore, Caiaphas was commenting on historical fact.

Thank you for your comments, Herald. I've considered the possibility of it being the jews scattered abroad; however, this part was added by John as an explanation of the prophecy; it is not a direct quote of what Caiaphas said.

 

[Herald]

You're right. I made my last post from my phone and didn't have the text in front of me. Thanks foe the correction.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mb---

I have no idea who told you this but I'm not a Calvinist and I do not believe that God elects gentiles before Salvation at all. The only ones that are elect before Salvation are Jews. and that election does not necessarily assure Salvation. Scripture does not say that any Gentile is elect.

maybe you should take another look...

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

2Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.


opps..might have missed these verses also:
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

 

[OldRegular]

I disagree. God never changes as He has always been God almighty and always will be. How ever God is not limited to man's ideas of Him. Nor is His omnipotence. Nothing is impossible with God. Scripture could not say all things are possible with God and it not be so.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
MB

You have taken the Scripture out of context. God cannot do anything contrary to His nature. For example God cannot lie:

Hebrews 6:17, 18
17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18. That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

 

[Herald]

You have taken the Scripture out of context. God cannot do anything contrary to His nature. For example God cannot lie:

Hebrews 6:17, 18
17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18. That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Quite right. God's only limitations are those things in which He self-limits. You gave one example (God cannot lie).

 

[convicted1]

I understand, although I do think you are a rare bird---a non-cal who doesn't hold that election is based on foreseen faith.

Brother Skan and I both see it the same way, corporate election.

And as a Cal, of course, I understand foreseen faith differently--that is is a result of God's choice; that God knows who will have faith because he has determined that they will, and will use means to accomplish his will.

God sees and knows all things from way before He even created the first angel. I agree that God gives faith to His creation, but not irresistibly so. A gift given to where they have to accept it, isn't a gift. Some will squander there "faith gift", and exchange it for a lie.

So, let me make sure I understand. Your view is corporate election, which I take to mean, that God has purposed to save all those who repent and believe. Everybody within that class or group is elected. Is that right?

Yes. God chose the nation of Israel corporately when He called and used Moses to bring them out of bondage from Israel. In Exodus 12, you see a picture of Christ in the lamb or goat without spot or blemish that was sacrificied, and it's blood applied to the top post, and two side posts. This atonement was for all of Israel, and not just some. In Leviticus 16, Aaron was to lay both of his hands upon the head of a live he goat(another picture of Christ, btw), and he was to confess the sins of all Israel, and then that goat was led into the wilderness by the hands of a fit man. Again, this was for all of Israel, and not just some. Then in Hebrews 3, the writer(I believe it to be Paul, imo), stated that they(OT Israelites) could not enter into rest, not for a lack of an atonement, but a lack of belief.

So, iow, Christ, when He died and was risen, and seated on the right hand of the Father, corporately elected/chose the gentiles, because of the Jews unbelief. In the OT, we were considered dogs, and only a few gentiles(Ruth and Rahab) were allowed to enter. Jesus broke down that wall with His works of the cross.

I see your view and the foreseen faith view as our electing ourselves, independently of any work of God. I'll rely on you to set me straight on anything I've mis-stated.

No, we don't elect ourselves. Without God first calling and drawing a man, we will not, or rather, can not come.