The Christ of Christmas

[BobRyan]

In Luke 24:25-26 Christ said that His suffering, death and resurrection were in fulfillment of scripture.

So what is your opinion? Did the Jews reject their Messiah because God sovereignly commanded them to in scripture? "They could do no other".

Or did God predict Christ's rejection by the Jews in the OT text becaues He knew the future and the choices that they would make?

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 25, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[KenH]

Acts 4:27-28
27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Notice how it's all of us - Jews and Gentiles - whom God used to crucify Jesus. God had determined that Jesus would bear the punishment of those whom He would draw to Christ. It is just like the cases where hardening of the human heart by God takes place - there is a purpose of God being carried out. The carrying out of the purpose is necessary in God's grand design but it is not the cause of whether a person suffers punishment in hell.

[ December 25, 2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Not to deviate from the subject, but is there actually a Christ of Christmas? Is not Christmas just another Catholic invention that plagues the world? Yes, there is such a thing as the Christ-Mass, but it has nothig to do with the Christ we worship and adore.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

Finally~someone understands! Thanks, PB!

[ December 25, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

 

[BobRyan]

The carrying out of the purpose is necessary in God's grand design but it is not the cause of whether a person suffers punishment in hell.

So you're saying God chose that they should crucify Chist and they were "guilty" of following God's commands?

In Acts Peter states to the Jews that Christ was the one "Whom you crucified". Acts 4:10

Acts 2:23 "You nailed to the cross by the hands of godless men".

Peter acknowledges that it was the jews that forced the hand of the Romans as in fact Rome wanted to set Christ free at the trial.

The Jews themselves testify of the Apostles that "you are trying to bring this man's blood upon our heads" Acts 5:28

The one true church - the Hebrew nation church setup by God with eternal promises of His Spirit and His teaching Word - failed (as we see in Romans 11) due to unbelief.

But it appears that Calvinism insists that they "crucified Christ" at God's direction - correct?

So the Christ of Christmas was pre-determined by God to be killed by His own "He came to His own and His Own received him Not" John 1 - and the plan, the directive to reject and crucify the Christ of Christmas is God's not man's according to Calvinism - correct?

In the Arminian model - Christ is sent to die for our sins - but the act of rejection and crucifixion is "predicted" by God rather than commanded of the Jews. It is neat how free will removes the blame from God as the author of the crucifixion.

Notice that in all the parables about that scenario - not once does Christ say "And so the land owner sent his son and commanded the keepers of the vinyard to kill him". Christ always presents the Arminian scenario instead.

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 26, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[KenH]

Acts 4:27-28
27 “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

Bob,

1) What do you do with verse 28?

2) Are you saying that, at least theoretically, man might not have crucified Jesus so that there would have been no forgiveness of sins purchased by His blood?

 

[KenH]

Bob,

The bottom line is that all of us, every human being who will ever live, is guilty of crucifying the Son of God, not just the ones who participated in the physical act.

You are guilty of it and so am I.

 

[BobRyan]

1) What do you do with verse 28?

God's predestination is in the context of what He foreknows about the future. It is not arbitrary selection in the absence of knowledge (as Calvinists claim) - it is within the context of His Own sovereign choice for a free will system - and also knowing what the future is - and knowing what ends He wants to accomplish within the context that He established by His own choice.

2) Are you saying that, at least theoretically, man might not have crucified Jesus so that there would have been no forgiveness of sins purchased by His blood?

Hey - you stepped a little outside the box! Nice going. I am saying that the 2nd death is not curcifixion. I am saying that we all die the first death and can not claim to have "paid for our own sins" by dying the first death. Christ paid the ultimate price for us - He died the second death so that we don't have to. But as it turns out - the 2nd death is not crucifixion (or else a lot of other Christians could claim they paid for their own sins on their own crosses).

The crucifixion then is just an outward sign - demonstration in miniature of the much greater torment and suffering of soul and spirit that Christ was actually dying in our place.

The Jews did not "need to reject their Messiah" and neither Jews nor Romans had the "ability" to "create the 2nd death".

Which gets me back to my question - Why not just have Christ show up as a man (as He did to Abraham in Gen 18) and die the 2nd death for our sins - making the atoning sacrifice and returning to heaven?

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 27, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
God's predestination is in the context of what He foreknows about the future.

That just won't fly, Bob. You are ignoring the plain teaching of the verse, just as you accuse Calvinists of doing with other verses.

Just accept the verse for what it says, Bob. Let go of your human misconceptions of God and believe what the Bible teaches.

[ December 27, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

 

[BobRyan]

The Calvinist defines "predestined" as "in the Abscence of God's Knowledge".

The Arminian never makes that assumption about a void where God predestines without His own knowledge in play as a part of that predestination.

There is in fact no "definition" for predestinatoin that insists that it is "without knowledge". You can't assume that Arminians would make that leap just because the Calvinist model "needs it".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[KenH]

Bob,

Can you put that in plain English for me?

Ken

 

[Yelsew]

To the eternal God the past is the future and the future is the past, there is nothing in eternity to determine past and future. It all occurs at God's spoken word and in God's (eternal) time.

Time only has meaning for us since we view ourselves on a journey.

 

[Harald]

I believe the ultimate reason why the Jewish nation in general rejected Jesus as Messias was because God had sovereignly decreed it in eternity, and the decree included and resulted in the matter of sovereignly leaving them in an unregenerate state, which natural and pitiable state was the material cause to their blindness and hardness. And when God had thus decreed and sworn in Himself there was no force in the universe able to change His will, so that none of those rejecting the Messias could have done the least to help themselves or their fellow Jews. Those Jews who God saved by Christ's work He regenerated and then enabled them to believe in the Messias to whom He had drawn them, to the joy and comfort of their troubled souls, to the glory of His praise.

Harald

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
To the eternal God the past is the future and the future is the past, there is nothing in eternity to determine past and future. It all occurs at God's spoken word and in God's (eternal) time.

Time only has meaning for us since we view ourselves on a journey.

I happen to agree with you on this point. What I find astonishing is that you apparently don't see how silly this makes the notion of free will.

 

[BobRyan]

Herald
I believe the ultimate reason why the Jewish nation in general rejected Jesus as Messias was because God had sovereignly decreed it in eternity, and the decree included and resulted in the matter of sovereignly leaving them in an unregenerate state

Herald - thanks. that was direct and to the point.

Almost makes you wish the Jews had known that in Acts 5 when they complain that the Apostles are trying to "lay this man's blood on us" Acts 5:28 when in fact - "God told us to and we are simply acting at His sovereign direction".

I think there is an entire group of Christians that need to be reaching out to the Jews with that "out" about how God directed them to reject Christ.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Arminian never makes that assumption about a void where God predestines without His own knowledge in play as a part of that predestination.

I see that this statement about the fact that God is all-knowing and that this divine attribute of God is never "turned off" just so He can "correctly predestine in a way that is truly arbitrary" - is confusing for some..

For what it's worth - I agree with those who insist that for truly "arbitrary" predestination - God needs to "switch off" His knowledge - so He can claim to have "SELECTED" without knowing the future - I just don't happen to think He does that.

In Christ,

Bob

[ January 01, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]