The Church and the Tribulation

[Askjo]

Will the church go through the 7 years tribulation? If so, what is your belief on this question?

 

[Dr. Bob]

I personally accept the fact that the return of the Lord Jesus, prior to His victory over the Beast and establishing His literal millenial kingdom, is to take His Bride from earth before the events of the Tribulation unfold.

It is a blessed hope before the great and terrible day of hell on earth that is depicted in Rev. 5-19. By the time of Rev 19, 95+% of the population of earth will be dead.

If God's church, or the few that are left, are part of the few "survivors", it is not much more than a hollow boast to call it a "blessed hope".

I may go through terrible times now (as did believers at the hand of Rome or believers at the hand of other "believers" in the Inquizition/Reformation) but the church en toto has, is, and will be anxiously . . .

" . . waiting for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead -- Jesus -- who has already delivered us from the wrath to come.

For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain deliverance by our Lord Jesus Christ."
I Thess 5

 

[Bartimaeus]

Bro Griffin,
I have a good friend who wrote a pamphlet, "Is this the tribulation or am I just being tribulated".

I really liked the title.

Thanks ----Bart “The dueling society was a polite society”.

 

[Dr. Bob]

LOL - Think I'll steal that title for a sermon some day (when I get out of Jeremiah, which could be in a couple years).

If one accepts the Bible literally, then the Tribulation is going to be one terrible time.

Preterists fictionalize it (not for as much $$ as Tim LaHaye) but it is and will be real.

We HAVE tribulation now, just as we HAVE antichrists now. But wow, the BIG ONES COMING and we're not just talking about taking out California with it . . .

 

[BrianT]

I believe that if there is a 7-year 'tribulation' period immediately prior to Christ's return, yes the Church will go through it.

 

[Grasshopper]

Preterists fictionalize it (not for as much $$ as Tim LaHaye) but it is and will be real.

Show me a Preterist who doesn't believe the tribulation was literal. Read Josephus' "War of the Jews" for the Preterist account of the tribulation.

Tis futurist who have a problem with the literalism of Revelation 1:1, where "shortly" isn't to be taken literally.

 

[Trotter]

No, the church will not go through the Tribulation.

Trotter

 

[Pete Richert]

I have found an interesting article about the preterist view. I will qoute a section on "The tribulation" about how it did "literally happen" in ad 70, or so this woman (or man) thinks.

BTW, you really should read the whole article if you have time. click here

The curses of Deuteronomy 28 were heaped upon them. Trapped in the city of Jerusalem, swollen with Passover pilgrims and refugees, the apostate Jews slaughtered each other, for food and for simple wicked spite. The Temple flowed with the blood of 8500 cut throats when the Idumeans (the descendants of Esau) broke into the city.

Parents roasted and ate their own children; fathers literally
snatched the food from their starving children's mouths.
The Roman soldiers captured those trying to escape and
crucified them, sometimes as many as 500 in a single day,
until there wasn't wood enough for the crosses.

Escapees were disemboweled as rumor spread that they had
swallowed gold. The Romans used their catapults against
the city. As these missiles plunged into Jerusalem, the
watchmen of these doomed people, arrogant, utterly
depraved and entirely blasphemous even in the very face of
the final judgment against them, shouted sarcastically, ?The
Son is coming!?

In the end, a million Jews died in Jerusalem; most of the rest
were taken into slavery and dispersed to the ends of the
earth. The Temple was looted as it was destroyed, its
once-holy vessels and ornaments carried off in triumph to
Rome, where a great arch was erected to Titus, the destroyer
of Judea. The land of Israel was a bloody, stinking, smoking
ruin, filled with rotting, bloated bodies-men, women and
children without discretion.

Those who imagined themselves safe as the children of
Abraham found themselves betrayed by their real father, the
father of lies. No longer would the ?synagogue of Satan?
persecute God's people and falsely accuse them and murder
them. No longer would the self-righteous Sadducee preside
over the blasphemous sacrifices they had continued, daring
to ask for the blessing of the Almighty, after murdering in
cold blood the ultimate High Priest and scorning the perfect
Sacrifice.

?For these be the days of vengeance, that all things that are
written may be fulfilled.? (Luke 21:22)

The Great Escape
But the true Israel of that generation didn't fall with the
destruction of Jerusalem. Seeing the ?abomination of
desolation,? in Luke 21:20 defined as ?Jerusalem
surrounded by armies,? the faithful remnant of Israel
remembered the word of their Lord and fled the city-not
?raptured? out of the world, but spared to go out into the
world. Not a single Christian suffered in the judgment
against apostate Israel. Of those who inherited the promises
made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not a hair of their heads
perished. (Luke 21:18)

Freed from the persecutions and harrassments of false
Israel, they went out from there as the new Temple, no
longer confined to one nation or a building of stone, to
begin the gathering from the four winds the rest of the true
children of Abraham, an occupation passed on to us. No
longer must the righteous of that generation conclude their
Communion liturgy with, ?Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!?

 

[npetreley]

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, but I'll say it again...

There is no 7 year tribulation period. There is a period of great tribulation, which begins with the abomination of desolation when the man of sin is revealed. The church is present during the great tribulation. Jesus cuts the great tribulation short (how short nobody knows) with His return at the Day of the Lord, after which He pours out His wrath upon the world. The church is raptured on or about the Day of the Lord and is not subject to His wrath.

 

[npetreley]

One problem with the preterist view regarding the war of the Jews is that they focus on the short period surrounding the destruction of the temple in order to make it fit the 7 or 3 1/2 year prophetic periods. They neglect the fact that the war waged on and off until 136 AD, with the Romans commiting terrible atrocities against the Jews throughout that entire time period.

 

[Tim]

It's not just about having war with the Romans. It's about Jerusalem in particular--the place where Christ was crucified, where the guilty leadership had their base of power and it's about the end of the vestiges of the Old Covenant (as Hebrews describes).

Tim

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Tim:
It's not just about having war with the Romans. It's about Jerusalem in particular--the place where Christ was crucified, where the guilty leadership had their base of power and it's about the end of the vestiges of the Old Covenant (as Hebrews describes).

Maybe, but it bugs me that articles say things like this without mentioning that the events occur over a very big time period extending all the way to at least 136 AD:

In the end, a million Jews died in Jerusalem; most of the rest were taken into slavery and dispersed to the ends of the earth. The Temple was looted as it was destroyed, its once-holy vessels and ornaments carried off in triumph to Rome, where a great arch was erected to Titus, the destroyer of Judea. The land of Israel was a bloody, stinking, smoking ruin, filled with rotting, bloated bodies-men, women and children without discretion.

The Jews still not only inhabited the land, but things like circumcision were not outlawed (or made more restricted) until sometime after 115 AD.

Ironically, religious Jews of the time of the revolt of Simon ben Kosiba (130-136 AD) believed they were experiencing the apocalyptic wars then, and that Simon Ben Kosiba was the messiah.

Last but not least, it strikes me as odd that preterists will obsess on a word like "generation" to bolster the preterist view, yet dismiss entirely the fact that Jesus said His return would be so obvious (and preceded by celestial signs that did not occur in 70AD) that nobody could miss it. Obviously a lot of people missed it because we're still arguing about what happened and whether or not it fulfilled prophecy.

 

[Gunther]

One thing you have to love about the preterist system is this: they base their whole "proof" on the history of a lost Jew hired by the opposition to chronicle what happened. Very reliable. Yeah, it isn't to ridiculous and foolish to base theology on media coverage.

Preterists are literalists on timing statements only (by taking the one definition that fits their system surprisingly).

Futurists are literalists on timing statements and events. We don't prostitute the meanings of words.

 

[Tim]

The fact that suffering continued among Jews in the land after 70 AD is beside the point.

For a sense of the theological and historical import here, let me quote from Shaff's History of Christianity:

"The awful catastrophe of the destruction of the Jewish theocracy ... was the greatest calamity of Judaism and a great benefit to Christianity; a refutation of the one, a vindication and emancipation of the other. It not only gave a mighty impulse to faith, but at the same time formed a proper epoch in the history of the relation between the two religious bodies. It separated them forever. ... God himself destroyed the house , in which he had thus far dwelt, in which Jesus had taught, in which the apostles prayed; he rejected his peculiar people for their obstinate rejection of the Messiah; he demolished the whole fabric of the Mosaic theocracy; ... in doing so he cut the cords which had hitherto bound the infant church to the outward economy of the old covenant, and to Jerusalem as it's center. Henceforth the heathen could no longer look upon Christianity as a mere sect of Judaism, but must regard and treat it as a new , peculiar religion The destruction of Jerusalem, therefore, marks that momentous crisis at which the Christian church as a whole burst forth forever from the chrysalis of Judaism, awoke to a sense of its maturity, and in government and worship at once took its independent stand before the world."

 

[Grasshopper]

yet dismiss entirely the fact that Jesus said His return would be so obvious (and preceded by celestial signs that did not occur in 70AD) that nobody could miss it.

Where does it say that nobody would miss it? And what signs are you reffering to?

One thing you have to love about the preterist system is this: they base their whole "proof" on the history of a lost Jew hired by the opposition to chronicle what happened. Very reliable.

I'll take the word of a lost 1st century Jew named Josephus over the word of a 21st century goof by the name of Jack Van Impe.

Futurists are literalists on timing statements and events. We don't prostitute the meanings of words

I love this argument. So how do futurist define words like: "soon", "near", "at-hand", and "last hour". Be sure not to prostitute the meaning.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

The Bible does not promise us that we shall escape from the Tribulation. 1 Thess. 3:3-4 tell us, that we are appointed for tribulations. Why? Because Christ suffered on the cross, so, therefore we should follow His example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Paul tells us, that we must go throug MUCH tribulations - Acts 14:22.

In John 16:33 tells us, that we should be cheer while have tribulations, because Christ already overcome it.

Tribulation is not same as wrath. We shall never suffer the wrath of God, because of salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess 5:9.

Wrath is for to punish all unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ, send tem to hell.

No scripture saying the wrath of God shall pour down upon one saint/Christian.

Rev. 13:7, and Rev. 20:4 tells us, Christians will be present on earth to face Antichrist.

Christ cannot come till Antichrist must to be revealed first - 2 Thess.2:3. 2 Thess. 2:3 explains so clear.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

DeafPosttrib: "
No scripture saying the wrath of God shall
pour down upon one saint/Christian.
"

Do the math. 1/3 of the current world population
is called "Christian". Over 2/3 of the world population
will be killed in the Tribulation period.
Some Christian is going to get zapped in the "wrath of God".

DeafPosttrib: "Rev. 13:7, and Rev. 20:4 tells us,
Christians will be present on earth to face Antichrist."

These scriptures say no such thing.
Revelation 13:7 is speaking of the Jewish Israeli elect saints,
"Christian" speaks of the mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints. Two different groups.
Revelation 20:4, second group, is speaking of the Jewish Israeli elect saints,
"Christian" speaks of the mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints. Two different groups.
Revelation 20:4, first group, is speaking of the
mostly gentile church age born-again
elect saints who were raptured before the tribulation period began.
Both groups are part of the first resurrection.


BTW, you still have a "when to one" and "when to two" and "when to three"
problem. OR did you skip out of it by becoming unitarian?
There are different kinds of "tribulation".
One tribulation is a horrible condition i hope you never meet,
but likely will, if the Lord tarries. One tribulation is
a TIME PERIOD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jesus slays the preterist position in Matthew 24:21-22.

Then events in Judah about 70AD are NOT the worse
things that ever happended to a group of Jews or
Christians in the history 33AD to 2003AD.

- in 70AD a million Jews were slain; a million more sold into slavery

- about 1320AD some 40 million (1/3 the population), mostly
Christian, died in Europe by the Black Death

- In 1920-21 some 8-million Russian Orthodox
were slain on the alter to the Communist god: Mammon.

Hello! reality check time.
The Tribulation Period is yet to come and will be
worse than all these three examples from history
put together. Praise God, if you are a child of God,
you WILL NOT BE THERE!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Futurists are literalists on timing statements and events. We don't prostitute the meanings of words

I love this argument. So how do futurist define words like: "soon", "near", "at-hand", and "last hour". Be sure not to prostitute the meaning.

</font>[/QUOTE]Don't need the futurist to "define" it.
God defined it in 2 Peter 3:8-9 (nKJV):
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing,
that with the Lord one day is as a
thousand years, and a thousand years
as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His
promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.

Two days we have waited so far.
Two days is "soon", "near", "at-hand",
and "last hour" -- well they are unless
you are on a long trip with young children

 

[Thankful]

I have not studied this as much as most of you so there is no way that I can debate this issue, but I know what I believe.

The Lord will not put his church through the tribulation. Why would He punish us in such a manner? God loves his children.

Would any of you as a loving parent place your children in danger and make them suffer as descibed in the tribulation to come?

The love of God is greater than our love. It is beyond our understanding.