The Church as the Kingdom of God

Keith:

Well, perhaps then you would like to answer for us WHY there are literally HUNDREDS of Protestant sects, cults, isms, and denominations, ALL of whom CLAIM to be led of the Holy Spirit in establishing their "truth", yet all of whom disagree, sometimes VIOLENTLY with one another, on what that truth is?

Is the Holy Spirit that schizophrenic?

Or could it be that the promise of infallibly leading into truth (John 16:13) was given to a SPECIFIC GROUP OF MEN ONLY -- the Apostles?

I vote for the latter, since the the former premise (i.e. that everyone and anyone can know truth by the leading of the Holy Spirit and prayer) is demonstrably false by a simple examination of the clear evidence against it (i.e., the mass doctrinal confusion outside the bounds of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church built upon St. Peter).

Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth of God.

Indeed. Therefore, why not follow those men to whom He revealed the Faith? The historical record of theological and eclessiastical practice validates the Catholic Faith, not the Protestant belief system.

No amount of earthly education can bring one to a correct understanding of the word of God.

Yeah, but if you do understand, or at least attempt to study the Greek using the tools we have today, you won't believe some of the translational errors such as put forth by Premillenialists in Matthew 24: 3 as they mistranslate the Greek word "aion". (And that is one of many such glaring errors!!)

To be sure, knowing Greek and Hebrew could be a big plus, but it is no guarantee of a correct understanding of God’s word.

But compared to the sad translation called the KJV with its mistakes, it does help to study the Greek to get a better understanding of what is being said.

I have read debates between people who understood these languages concerning this subject. It seems that understanding these languages didn’t change their views of what these verses meant.

That is usually the result of coming into a debate with the presupposition that one is 100% correct and the facts be hanged!! I see that a lot.

As for me, understanding these languages or not, I find sufficient evidence in the scriptures to know that these verses are not saying that God’s church on earth would be built upon Peter.

Carson has given sufficient evidence in this thread that not only does the Matthian account state this, but that noted PROTESTANT SCHOLARS have admitted such. Now since these men KNOW GREEK and you admit you do not, don't you think that they have something to say to the issue that you should seriously consider rather than continuing to take your intransigent position?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Carson,

Now, if Revelation 12 said anything about Mary or the Ark or Eve, then I'd agree with you, but it doesn't!!! AND no where in the New Testament after the gospels is Mary even mentioned except that one time in Galatians! Obviously, the apostles did NOT see her as the new Eve or else, when discussing Christ being the "last man Adam" the apostle Paul would have brought her up as the "new Eve" - but he didn't! In fact, he doesn't even mention her in his writing - ever - except once in Galatians. From what the RCC teaches, one would assume that the Bible ought to have a reference to Mary worship on every page, but it doesn't!

So, taking ONE VERSE, out of the entire New Testament that doesn't mention Mary AT ALL outside the gospels except that one place in Galatians, you have made her the "Queen of Heaven" and you offer oblations to her - oblations of willworship and false doctrine.

The New Testament talks about how bishops must be married at least twice - plainly stating it - and talks about Mary being "Queen of Heaven" NOT AT ALL - but which do you believe? The New Testament plainly states that we are not to call anyman "father" as a religious title and never states that Mary is "Queen of Heaven" but which do you believe? The New Testament has example after example of baptism by immersion and none of Mary being "Queen of Heaven" but which do you believe? The New Testament emphatically shows that infants are not to be baptized, 1 Peter 3:21 and Heb 8:11 as well as Acts 8:37 and never says that Mary is "Queen of Heaven" but which do you believe??????? You never believe what it says - only what you want it to say!

I can't believe that you would have the audacity to call the apostles theologians and to make as if they created doctrines based on typology. NO! They were inspired of God and wrote what He said to write and when they used typology it was as proof of what they already knew from what He said not as a basis for a new doctrine conjured up in their own heads. You Catholics, however, take whatever you can to make whatever doctrine you want. Purgatory, for example is based on an allegorical interpretation of Mat 5:25 which everyone in their right mind can see is no allegory at all! Despite this, your church's own members hate it so much that they call it's service by the word that is used as the dismissal - what other organization on the face of this earth is so loathed as that??????? Even so, you have the gall to say that it is the true church. It sickens me.

[ May 01, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

Soloscriptura: You are wrong here. I can tell you why we call our service the Sacrifice of the Mass, and it is not because we hate it.

Webster Dictionary
mass Pronunciation: 'mas
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English mæsse, modification of (assumed) Vulgar Latin messa, literally, dismissal at the end of a religious service , from Late Latin missa, from Latin, feminine of missus, past participle of mittere to send


The word Mass is latin for the dismissal at the end of a religious service. It is the past participle of mittere which means to send. This is the Great Commission of Jesus Christ to go out into the world and bapitize and teach all that Jesus commanded. Great way to conclude the Sacrifice of the Mass and go out into the world as the Body of Christ. It is a commission...to be sent out.

Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Matthew 28:19-20

God Bless

 

It's called the Mass, because the whole time they are there most Catholics are waiting for the dismissal. You have to remember that this name was given to the Catholic service back in the days when the Mass was in Latin and the common people not knowing Latin didn't understand much of anything except the dismissal and therefore looked forward to it with great expectation. Why? Because the Catholic church broke God's rule!!!!!!! What rule? The one about speaking in a foreign language without an interpreter. The people couldn't understand, were not edified, and couldn't wait to leave!

 

Carson,

The question enters my mind......

what is a religious fanatic?


(In your opinion, of course


(I'm wondering if I am one!!!!!)

Cheers mate, from Down Under

 

Glorious:

Lets try to keep things said in some context.

God Bless

 

Construction workers call em sweatbands.
2 1/2 books of Green Stamps will still get you a towel.
But then those who wear their laundry on their heads
haven't won any popularity contests lately.

 

OH YEAH!

 

LOL
Thanks

 

Hello again Carson. Sorry it has taken me a while to get back to you. You said the following.

“Okay, brother - then why don't you break out the Greek texts and start interpreting? Why start with an English text, which is already a translation and miss the word plays and nuances that appear only in the original languages?”

Matt 16:18 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

All I have to study the Greek is my Strong’s concordance. According to it, the word Peter in the verse above, and the word rock in the verse above, are two separate words. If the Lord was trying to say that he intended to build his church upon Peter, then why didn’t he just say, thou art Peter, and I will build my church upon you.

The word Peter is Petros, which means a ( piece of ) rock. The word rock in the above verse is petra, which means a ( mass of ) rock ( lit. or fig.).

Never in the new testament is the Greek word petra used to refer to Peter. Many times though, it is used to refer to the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 10:4 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom 9:33 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1 Pet 2:8 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

The Lord is referred to as a rock all through the scriptures. The topic of verse 18, is what Peter said n verse 16, Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. This is the mass of rock that Christ is referring to, that the church is built upon. It would make no sense for Christ to say, thou art a piece of rock, and upon this mass of rock, I will build my church. What mass of rock, Peter’s name means piece of rock. It is Christ that figuratively referred to as petra, a mass of rock in the scriptures.

Ps 18:1-3 1 I will love thee, O LORD, my strength.
2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.
3 I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies.

If you want to make Peter, and those who claim to be his successors, your rock brother, then that is your choice. I will make the Lord my rock. Jesus said, “ I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6. I accept what Jesus said in the above verse as the truth. I will go to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ, and no other.
Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith.

 

Hello CatholicConvert.

I will do my best to answer your questions. Forgive me if my response is slow at times, time is a precious commodity.

You said “ Well, perhaps then you would like to answer for us WHY there are literally HUNDREDS of Protestant sects, cults, isms, and denominations, ALL of whom CLAIM to be led of the Holy Spirit in establishing their "truth", yet all of whom disagree, sometimes VIOLENTLY with one another, on what that truth is?”

2 Tim 4:1-4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I believe the above verses should sufficiently answer your question. This thing was predicted in the scriptures themselves. The church of Rome is the Mother of all these denominations, which came about as a result of those first Protestants that broke away from her. They broke away because of her blatant disregard for the scriptures. Then they themselves repeated her mistakes by refusing to advance any further than their leaders had taken them when they died. Thus they refused the progressive reformation from the false doctrines of Rome. Their violence was also learned from the church of Rome, whom is certainly not the least of offenders in this area.

You said “Or could it be that the promise of infallibly leading into truth (John 16:13) was given to a SPECIFIC GROUP OF MEN ONLY -- the Apostles?”

Luke 11:13 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Eph 1:13 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Cor 3:16 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

The Holy Spirit is promised to those who ask for it, not only to a select few.

I said- Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth of God.

You said “Indeed. Therefore, why not follow those men to whom He revealed the Faith? The historical record of theological and eclessiastical practice validates the Catholic Faith, not the Protestant belief system.”

I do follow those men to whom He revealed the Faith. They are the men who wrote the scriptures, which are my rule, and guide for life. It is by the study of God’s word, that I know the Catholic faith is not the faith that He revealed.

2 Tim 3:15-17 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

You said “Carson has given sufficient evidence in this thread that not only does the Matthian account state this, but that noted PROTESTANT SCHOLARS have admitted such. Now since these men KNOW GREEK and you admit you do not, don't you think that they have something to say to the issue that you should seriously consider rather than continuing to take your intransigent position?”

No biblical doctrine is built upon one single verse. As you have already pointed out, so many different Protestants, all preaching different things. Now you want me to take their word for it, when they are in agreement with you. I have a bible. I will agree with what it teaches. It will be my guide. Forgive me brother, but I trust it, more than you, or any other. I believe it is the word of God, and that God himself wants me to understand it. That’s why he gave it to me, and anyone else who treasures it in their heart.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Well, perhaps then you would like to answer for us WHY there are
literally HUNDREDS of Protestant sects, cults, isms, and denominations,
ALL of whom CLAIM to be led of the Holy Spirit in establishing their
"truth", yet all of whom disagree, sometimes VIOLENTLY with
one another, on what that truth is?

The Catholic Church itself is split in two with the EO and RCC.
Paul wrote to the many churches and much of his efforts were put into
rebuking them, correcting them and keeping them from cutting off each
other's ears with swords. If that was the birth of Catholicism, then it
sure got off to a bad start. Paul said "
1Cr 1:11
" For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by
them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are
contentions among you. "


Or could it be that the promise of infallibly leading into truth (John 16:13)
was given to a SPECIFIC GROUP OF MEN ONLY -- the Apostles?

The Holy Spirit was not offered to a group or a church...it is offered to
anyone who will ask for it as Keith pointed out.

If the SPECIFIC GROUP OF MEN ONLY received it and the promises, what
happened after they died ? Can someone else inherit the Holy Spirit
from them...? Can a Church receive the Holy Spirit and therefore receive
eternal life. Can a Church be saved ? Can a Church be sent to hell if they
do not believe in their heart...etc. ?

Is this then SALVATION ENMASSE....?

 

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Keith, you have a problem. Our Lord promised that the Church would not be prevailed against by the gates of hell. That promise means that the doctrines and teachings which were given to the apostles must have been the truth. The same truth which the apostles passed on to the very next generation.

Now from the earliest writings of the Early Fathers of the Church, we specifically do not see anything resembling Adventist teachings. What we do see is that the Early Church taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist and baptismal regeneration. So immediately, the Adventist position simply cannot be true because it did not exist back then. The claims that Ellen White simply restored what the evil papists corrupted is not true either.

The Church of Rome is the Mother of all these denominations, which came about as a result of those first Protestants that broke away from her.

No, the Church at Rome (there is no such thing as the Church of Rome) is the place where the bishop of Rome, who is the head over the Body of Chrsit here on earth, is located. The Church is Catholic, i.e., universal, and until 1054 and the schism of the Orthodox, was composed of patriarchates in 5 major cities. Rome, Byzantium, Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria.

They broke away because of her blatant disregard for the scriptures.

There is no such thing as "blatant disregard" for the Scriptures within the Catholic Faith. There is a considerable body of people who think that their minds are smarter and their understanding more precise than that which was given directly to the apostles. We know, for instance, that St. Peter choose and taught one of the first martyrs of the 2nd century -- St. Ignatius. In his writings, it becomes quite clear that what Peter taught Ignatius is the Catholic Faith, and not Protestantism, nor especially the Adventist ideas.

The Protestants broke away because they were rebels and would not submit to the authority which Christ placed upon the earth.

Their violence was also learned from the church of Rome, whom is certainly not the least of offenders in this area.

Ad hominum attack. Not germane to the issue of doctrinal purity and authority on earth.

The Holy Spirit is promised to those who ask for it, not only to a select few.

First of all, the Holy Spirit is a HE...the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity of God.

The promise that we shall all recieve as believers the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as the promise of being infallibly led into all truth. The empirical evidence this is true is the vast number of conflicting assemblies who claim the Holy Spirit yet cannot even agree on doctrine. This is not found in the Catholic Faith. In the Catholic Faith there is unity of doctrine. What the Latin West believes is believed also by the Eastern Church and even by the Orthodox.

I do follow those men to whom He revealed the Faith. They are the men who wrote the scriptures, which are my rule, and guide for life. It is by the study of God’s word, that I know the Catholic faith is not the faith that He revealed.

Sorry. Hate to burst yer bubble, but if'n you read the writings of the time you are claiming, i.e., the apostolic times and the writings of the disciples who immediately followed them, you will find that their writings are entirely in agreement with the Catholic Faith.

No biblical doctrine is built upon one single verse.

Why not? That is what Ellen White did!

But beyond that, there is NUMEROUS verses which teach those things. For instance, the teaching of Christ on the Covenantal Kingdom in Matthew 21 which points directly to the establishment of the Church on earth to replace the nation of the Jews.

Or the performance of YOM KIPPUR in Heaven by the Lord in Hebrews 9 and 10. YOM KIPPUR is a corporate sacrifice made by a high priest only, and is for the covenantal nation, not the individual sins. Therefore, if Christ is in Heaven, offering YOM KIPPUR right now, then the Church simply cannot fail, for the Blood of Christ is the perfect and perpetual sacrifice for the nation which He established on earth.

You need to study typology and understand how these things tie together.

I have a bible. I will agree with what it teaches. It will be my guide.

And you forgive me, but bluntly said....no it is not.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

You don't want any parts of this, yet Jesus Himself said that it is eternal life to eat His Flesh and dring His Blood.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You don't want any parts of this. St. Peter insists that baptism is for the remission of sins (i.e. takes away original sin).

You see, you don't want anything to do with the Bible when it contradicts your choosen ideas. The apostles were taught and did teach this very clearly. All you have to do to validate what I am saying is read the writings of the Early Fathers to see that they believed as I am positing -- the Real Presence and Baptismal Regeneration.

If the apostles were teaching something else, then you show me the EVIDENCE that these ideas existed in the second century. There is ample evidence of the Catholic Faith in the second century, as early as 113 AD. Where are the writings from the apostles disciples that show the Adventist position? They don't exist. They don't exist because it was not taught.

And now you have a real problem because the so called "Whore of Revelation" did not come into being, according to your teaching, for another 200 years.

Now what do you do? How shall you twist the facts to protect yourself now>?

Forgive me brother, but I trust it, more than you, or any other.

I'm your brother? I thought that I simply could not be, seeing that I belong to the religion of the Whore of the Revelation. Well, this is news to me.

I believe it is the word of God, and that God himself wants me to understand it.

I have been studying it for 25 years. Line upon line, precept upon precept, slowly but surely it led me backwards to the Faith which was given to the apostles and exists in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

That’s why he gave it to me, and anyone else who treasures it in their heart.

If you come to understand the covenant of God, you will "see" the Faith Catholic. That is what happened to me. The covenant of God is the key to understanding the Catholic Faith.

Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

 

The Catholic Church itself is split in two with the EO and RCC.

Nice try. No cigar. The doctrines and teachings of the Orthodox Church are identical to that of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as THOUSANDS of varients of Orthodoxy or Catholicism all believing different things about MAJOR DOCTRINES OF THE FAITH.

We all believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. We all believe in baptismal regeneration for the forgiveness of sins. We all hold to the seven Sacraments Christ gave the Church.

The only real problems that need to be worked out between the Eastern Orthodox and the Latin West are that of the Filioque clause in the Nicene Creed and the issue of papal authority.

And if the Orthodox will lose their stubborness on the second issue, they will admit that prior to 1054, all Eastern patriarchates admitted to and submitted to the authority of the See of St. Peter.

You are comparing apples to oranges when you try to say that this so called "split" is equal to the mass chaos you see in Protestantism.

Paul wrote to the many churches and much of his efforts were put into rebuking them, correcting them and keeping them from cutting off each other's ears with swords.

You can knock off the hyperbole also. There is difference between contentions, which are found whereever human beings live together, and trying to kill one another. The early believers were noted by the pagans and Jews by their love for one another.

If that was the birth of Catholicism, then it sure got off to a bad start.

If that was the birth of Catholicism, then the birth of Protestantism must have taken place in the Upper Room when Judas went out to betray his divine Master. Protestants have been doing the same ever since, therefore, I declare that any and all who have deviated from submission to authority have followed the lead of Judas.

" For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you."

WHERE's mention of the swords they were about to kill each other with?

The Holy Spirit was not offered to a group or a church...it is offered to anyone who will ask for it as Keith pointed out.

I didn't say that. I did say that the promise of being led into ALL TRUTH was given only to the apostles.

If the SPECIFIC GROUP OF MEN ONLY received it and the promises, what happened after they died?

I didn't say only they recieved the Holy Spirit. But I did say that the promise of infallibility was given to them only.

Can someone else inherit the Holy Spirit
from them...? Can a Church receive the Holy Spirit and therefore receive eternal life. Can a Church be saved ? Can a Church be sent to hell if they do not believe in their heart...etc.?

Is this then SALVATION ENMASSE....?

You better believe it, bucko!!! There is no salvation outside of the Body of Christ. Outside of Christ there is death. To be in Him is to be alive. To be outside Him is death.

The Church is referred to as the Body of Christ in Scripture.

What do you not understand about that simple premise?

God's salvation has always been corporate and familial, beginning with Genesis. Every dealing that God had in the OT, which precursors the NT, was corporate and familial.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

If that was the birth of Catholicism, then the birth of Protestantism must
have taken place in the Upper Room when Judas went out to betray his
divine Master. Protestants have been doing the same ever since, therefore,
I declare that any and all who have deviated from submission to authority
have followed the lead of Judas.

But I thought you implied that all the apostles were Catholics and the fathers of
the Catholic Church who were given infallible instruction...even the sword
wielding Peter who tried to chop up those who disagreed with him.

We all believe in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. We all believe in
baptismal regeneration for the forgiveness of sins. We all hold to the
seven Sacraments Christ gave the Church.

If regeneration starts with baptism, then lets mandatorily baptize all the murderers
and rapists in prison and drive the Arabs into the sea and baptize them so they will
all receive the Holy Spirit. SALVATION ENMASSE RCC STYLE !!!

I didn't say that. I did say that the promise of being led into ALL TRUTH was
given only to the apostles.

Good, that eliminates Catholic domination then for those who insist that the
apostles were our Catholic fathers.

WHERE's mention of the swords they were about to kill each other with?

Isn't Peter the pope the same one who cut off a piece of the soldier's ear, denied
Christ three times and then was referred to as ''satan'' by Jesus Himself. That's no
way for a pope to act.

You better believe it, bucko!!! There is no salvation outside of the Body of Christ.
Outside of Christ there is death. To be in Him is to be alive. To be outside Him is death..

Right, and that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church.

The Church is referred to as the Body of Christ in Scripture.

Right...but not the Catholic Church if that's what you're thinking.
The word doesn't even appear in the bible and that's why you don't
revel the bible as appropriate.

 

Why do Catholics always assume that the only way for the same word for rock to be used is to say "you are Petra and on this petra"? What's the problem with saying "you are Petros and on this petros"? Is there a gramatical problem with that? Also Pierre, which is Peter in French is a feminine noun. In anycase even if the different words are taken to be the same, Peter had just finished declaring that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, it is reasonable to conclude that God gave Simon the name of Peter because it was part of His plan that Peter should lay down the foundation of Christianity: that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. In the New Testament Jesus rarely makes direct statements about His being God, instead He relies on the testimony of others, in this case it was Peter who declared that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.