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The Church fathers

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Link:
Imagine this, you minister faithfully as a missionary, teacher, fighting against heresies and preaching the Lord Jesus, and you repeat a wrong tradition or piece of historical information you think you got from a good source, which was wrong, and thousands of people decry you as a heretic for it? I don't think we should do that to Ireneaus. I haven't read about any _heresy_ associated with Ireneaus, though he may have repeated some bad history.
I haven't read any heresy in his writings either (And I hope that none of my "writings" would be considered heretical by him)


Btw, if you think that people in the CoC movement are all going to hell because of their beliefs in baptism, then you probably won't find anyone you consider to be a Christian among the writings of the so-called 'church fathers' if they wrote anything on Baptism.
You're absolutely right. Those fathers who did write on baptism believed it was for regeneration and the remission of sins. Yet the silence is deafening from those out there who would accuse them of being "false prophets" because of this.

I don't think we should be so hard on them, since in Acts, Ananias tells Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins, calling on the name of the Lord. We have to look at the whole Bible, and accept those who believe the parts that may seem a little uncomfortable.
Good advice.

As far as Clement goes, if he is the one mentioned in scripture, then we can't say he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, not unless you believe God erases names from the book of life. When Paul wrote his letter, he said that Clement's name was in the book of life. I've looked over I Clement. It's a good message on humility and on other issues.
It is very good reading.
It also refers to the plurality of elders in Corinth as 'bishops,' a good argument against the monarchical bishop system that would evolve.
Well I'd disagree here a little bit. Although he uses the terms "bishops" and "presbyters" interchangeably (as is the case in the NT), in chapter 40 (v.5) he may be indicating that there was a presiding bishop (or elder) from among the group. This is especially true when he seems to be discussing the NT equivalents for "high priest" (?presiding bishop/elder), "priests"(other bishops/elders), "levites"(deacons), and the laity. When one compares this three-fold distinction with Ignatius--who wrote within 10-20 years of Clement but at Asia Minor--this seems to be evident that such a distinction was common though the terms were still used interchangeably in Rome (and other places). Ignatius was the first (that we know of) to use the term "bishop" exclusively for the presiding overseer, and "presbyters" for the others though it's possible by his time that such usage was already common in Asia Minor.
(Also it's interesting to note that when Irenaeus lists the succession of Roman presbyters, he lists the succession through one individual at a time all the way back to Linus)
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Logan:
I believe all the groups you mentioned could and indeed do fit the "wolf in sheep's clothing" label. But so far in my reading of the Church Father's (sill a lot to read!) I would have to say they were referring to the Gnostics. In particular about a man named Simon Magus....
I agree. I don't think it's the actual church fathers who were the "wolves" referred to by Paul (Acts 20:29); rather it's the various heretics the fathers wrote against. I'm still waiting for someone to try prove otherwise. :cool:
 

Ps104_33

New Member
The writings of the "fathers" are wide open to interpretation just as everything else translated from one language to another. Read some of their commentary on John chapter 6 and you will see that Protestants will interpret their writings different from a Roman Catholic. A father who agrees with key points of RC theology will be considered a Church father while others (like Tertullian for example, who didnt like infant baptism) are just "ecclesiastical writers".

BTW, there isnt one father who anyone will agree with on every point. They are fallible
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The real value of the fathers writings are their Scripture quotations as witnesses to the original text of Christ and the apostles.

This has its difficulties because it would appear that they made mistakes quoting from memory.

HankD
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Ps104_33:
The writings of the "fathers" are wide open to interpretation just as everything else translated from one language to another. Read some of their commentary on John chapter 6 and you will see that Protestants will interpret their writings different from a Roman Catholic.
Actually, all of the Fathers who wrote on the Eucharist believed in the Real Presence. All of them. Of course, Prostestants will try to selectively interpret them to suggest otherwise. Having been a life long Protestant who had believed in a Zwinglian (symbolic-only) interpretation of the Lord's Supper (and baptism, for that matter), I used to take Protestant apologists' word for it that some of the Fathers taught the Eucharist was only a symbol. Reading the fathers themselves revealed a different story. I mean, I could quote some if you like, but I have a feeling it would be falling on deaf ears.

A father who agrees with key points of RC theology will be considered a Church father while others (like Tertullian for example, who didnt like infant baptism) are just "ecclesiastical writers".
Tertullian is not considered a Church father (at least by the end of his life), not because he wasn't a fan of infant baptism, but because he fell into the Montanist heresy. (BTW--Tertullian still believed in baptismal regeneration; he just believed there was limited opportunity for forgiveness of sins committed after baptism, which is why he was in favor of "putting it off")

BTW, there isnt one father who anyone will agree with on every point. They are fallible
I don't think any here said they were infallible. In fact, I said otherwise in one of my posts above. Like it or not, however, they agree with each other much more than they disagree, especially on topics Baptists may find objectionable--real presence in the Eucharist; baptismal regeneration; and the real possibility of a true believer losing his salvation. That's a sobering fact (at least it is to me as a lifelong Baptist) considering their proximity to the apostles and their defense of the Deity and humanity of Christ against the early heretics.
 

Ps104_33

New Member
I don't think any here said they were infallible. In fact, I said otherwise in one of my posts above. Like it or not, however, they agree with each other much more than they disagree, especially on topics Baptists may find objectionable--real presence in the Eucharist; baptismal regeneration; and the real possibility of a true believer losing his salvation. That's a sobering fact (at least it is to me as a lifelong Baptist) considering their proximity to the apostles and their defense of the Deity and humanity of Christ against the early heretics.
Then you should be a Roman Catholic. Not a Baptist. If the fathers agree mostly with the RC church then why are you not a Catholic? Are you a Baptist against your true convictions?
 

Ps104_33

New Member
Considering their "close proximity" to the apostles and the fact that they agree with each other most of the time and they all claim "real presence" in the euchrist, then are you and I fools for remaining Baptist Bible believers?
 
S

Saveferris

Guest
A really great book on the subject is:

Four Witnesses
The Early Church in Her own Words
Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr
Irenaeus of Lyons

Edited by Rod Bennett

The Church Fathers don't 'agree' with the Catholic Church, in their day, they were members of the Church.
 

Logan

New Member
Originally posted by Save_ferris:
[QB] A really great book on the subject is:

Four Witnesses
The Early Church in Her own Words
Clement of Rome
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr
Irenaeus of Lyons

Edited by Rod Bennett
I agree...I am just about finished with this book. I have learned much about the Early Church and inspired by their faith.
 

Link

New Member
These verses in Acts 20 talks about two problems:

29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

One is the wolves coming in among the flock. The other is men 'of your own selves.' Even elders can mislead the flock. This may be one of the few verses about 'sheep stealing' in the Bible. Elders of the church don't steal sheep from each other, because all the sheep belong to Christ. They steal sheep if they steal sheep away from Christ, causing them to follow themselves in the wrong direction.
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Ps104_33:
Considering their "close proximity" to the apostles and the fact that they agree with each other most of the time and they all claim "real presence" in the euchrist, then are you and I fools for remaining Baptist Bible believers?
I'm a Baptist in name only at this point. I've been visiting other churches.

But yes, as Cardinal Newman said once: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. (Of course, whether or not that automatically makes one a Roman Catholic is debatable)
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Save_ferris:

The Church Fathers don't 'agree' with the Catholic Church, in their day, they were members of the Church.
Very good point.
thumbs.gif
 

Ps104_33

New Member
I'm a Baptist in name only at this point. I've been visiting other churches.
Moderators should make note of this comment. Can this poster post in Baptist only forums being baptist in name only?
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Ps104_33:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I'm a Baptist in name only at this point. I've been visiting other churches.
Moderators should make note of this comment. Can this poster post in Baptist only forums being baptist in name only?
</font>[/QUOTE]I've lately been confining my comments to the "Christian DEBATE Forums (All Christians)". I'm sure the watchdogs, however, appreciate you concern. :D
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Try Origen for size--known by many as the father of Arianism
Though not an Arian per se, the particularly way he viewed the Trinity certainly could have led to the development of Arianism.
I don't think this is a fair assessment of the thought of Origen. Yes, he was off in areas, but we must see that Arius himself was a student of Origens and his views were in opposition to Origen's.
Actually, Athanasius was just as much influenced by Origen. What Arianism and the later Nicene "orthodoxy" had in common was the emphasis on the separate "hypostases". The debate between them then was whether the 2nd and 3rd were eternal or created.
But earlier fathers did not express the Godhead quite this way. Even right before the Nicene Council, the Bishop of Rome himself, Dionysius, "was clearly shocked at the Origen-inspired doctrine of the three hypostases", as suggested by Dionysius of Alexandria, "which seemed to him to undermine the divine monarchy", and he implied they were "virtual tritheists, splitting the indivisible oneness of the Deity into 'three powers, three absolutely separate hypostases, three divinities'" (Kelley, Early Christian Doctrines, p. 134).

It also seems that there was a great change in the church between the apostles and the earliest fathers. This has been called "the lost century".

Jesse Lyman Hurlbut The Story of the Christian Church p.41
We would like to read of the later work of such helpers of St. Paul as Timothy, Apollos, and Titus., but all these...drop out of record at his death. For 50 years after St. Paul's life a curtain hangs over the church through which we strive vainly to look; and when at last it arises, about AD 120, with the writings of the earliest church fathers [Justin], we find a church in many aspects different from that in the days of Peter and Paul
William J. McGothlin The Course Of Christian History

But Christianity itself had been in [the] process of transformation as it progressed and at the close of the period was in many respects quite different from the apostolic Christianity -
Samuel G. Green A Handbook of Christian History:

The 30 years which followed the close of the New Testament Canon and the destruction of Jerusalem are in truth, the most obscure in the history of the Church. When we emerge in the second century, we are, to a great extent, in a changed world
William Fitzgerald Lectures on Ecclesiastical History:

over this period of transition, which immediately succeeds upon the era properly called apostolic, great obscurity hangs... -
Philip Schaff History of the Christian Church
The remaining 30 years of the first century are involved in mysterious darkness, illuminated only by the writings of John. [assuming John wrote in the 90's, which is also denied by preterists to fit in with their AD70 theory] This is a period of church history about which we know least and would like to know most.
This has always been of interest, but recently, it came to light again as I debated the preterists, who say that the Kingdom began in AD70; a teaching we do not really see immediately afteward; as the early fathers continued to wait for a return of Christ. The destruction of Jerusalem, I have learned has a lot more significance than we have realized. This probably does figure into what happened to the writings, doctrine and practice of the Church. It was after this that the Church began its ascent to the later "Catholicism", with bishops becoming exalted, and baptism and communion taking on mystical significance.

So while we can look to the fathers to get an idea of what the original teaching was, still, we must realize that even by their time, a lot had already changed. Actually; we have the original teachings in the New Testament; but it all boils down to the correct interpretation of them.
 
S

Saveferris

Guest
It boils down to more than that, because it is tradition that gives us the New Testament in the first place. Men of God penned the New Testament and men of God decided on the canon of the New Testament. So it begs the question, is the New Testament canon infallible?
 

manchester

New Member
The early Church evolved directly into what is now called the Orthodox Church. Was the RCC expelled from the Church in 1054 for teaching heresy?
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by manchester:
The early Church evolved directly into what is now called the Orthodox Church. Was the RCC expelled from the Church in 1054 for teaching heresy?
That's somewhat simplistic, but some might put it that way.
 

Ps104_33

New Member
But yes, as Cardinal Newman said once: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant. (Of course, whether or not that automatically makes one a Roman Catholic is debatable)
For every one Protestant that leaves their church (an example would be Cardinal Newman) hundreds upon hundreds of former Catholics fill Baptist Churches. Are they just ignorant?
 

Doubting Thomas

Active Member
Originally posted by Ps104_33:
For every one Protestant that leaves their church (an example would be Cardinal Newman) hundreds upon hundreds of former Catholics fill Baptist Churches. Are they just ignorant?
Perhaps. :cool:
 
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