Doubting Thomas
Active Member
I haven't read any heresy in his writings either (And I hope that none of my "writings" would be considered heretical by him)Originally posted by Link:
Imagine this, you minister faithfully as a missionary, teacher, fighting against heresies and preaching the Lord Jesus, and you repeat a wrong tradition or piece of historical information you think you got from a good source, which was wrong, and thousands of people decry you as a heretic for it? I don't think we should do that to Ireneaus. I haven't read about any _heresy_ associated with Ireneaus, though he may have repeated some bad history.
You're absolutely right. Those fathers who did write on baptism believed it was for regeneration and the remission of sins. Yet the silence is deafening from those out there who would accuse them of being "false prophets" because of this.Btw, if you think that people in the CoC movement are all going to hell because of their beliefs in baptism, then you probably won't find anyone you consider to be a Christian among the writings of the so-called 'church fathers' if they wrote anything on Baptism.
Good advice.I don't think we should be so hard on them, since in Acts, Ananias tells Paul to be baptized and wash away his sins, calling on the name of the Lord. We have to look at the whole Bible, and accept those who believe the parts that may seem a little uncomfortable.
It is very good reading.As far as Clement goes, if he is the one mentioned in scripture, then we can't say he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, not unless you believe God erases names from the book of life. When Paul wrote his letter, he said that Clement's name was in the book of life. I've looked over I Clement. It's a good message on humility and on other issues.
Well I'd disagree here a little bit. Although he uses the terms "bishops" and "presbyters" interchangeably (as is the case in the NT), in chapter 40 (v.5) he may be indicating that there was a presiding bishop (or elder) from among the group. This is especially true when he seems to be discussing the NT equivalents for "high priest" (?presiding bishop/elder), "priests"(other bishops/elders), "levites"(deacons), and the laity. When one compares this three-fold distinction with Ignatius--who wrote within 10-20 years of Clement but at Asia Minor--this seems to be evident that such a distinction was common though the terms were still used interchangeably in Rome (and other places). Ignatius was the first (that we know of) to use the term "bishop" exclusively for the presiding overseer, and "presbyters" for the others though it's possible by his time that such usage was already common in Asia Minor.It also refers to the plurality of elders in Corinth as 'bishops,' a good argument against the monarchical bishop system that would evolve.
(Also it's interesting to note that when Irenaeus lists the succession of Roman presbyters, he lists the succession through one individual at a time all the way back to Linus)