1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Church is NOT EQUAL to Israel!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by rjprince, Sep 7, 2007.

  1. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    The church contains all the redeemed of this age, both the redeemed of Israel and the redeemed from among the Gentiles, but the church is not redeemed Israel. Israel has not yet been redeemed, her return and redemption are yet future.

    There are many Jews who are part of ethnic Israel, as such they may currently be experiencing some of the blessings that are coming from God regathering Israel to her land. However, simply being a part of ethnic Israel does not equate to salvation. One day "all Israel shall be saved" but for now Israel is under partial temporary blindness – partial in that some Jews are saved in this age, a remnant according to grace, and temporary in that one there will be a national revival the result of which will be that all Jews living at that time will be saved, both personally and nationally.

    Non-redeemed Jews are still part of a chosen nation, but that does not guarantee their eternal salvation anymore than it did for unbelieving Jews in the OT.

    Salvation has always been by personal faith.
     
  2. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    A Comparison and Contrast Between

    Israel and the Church


    Israel is a nation chosen by God and sustained by covenant promises (Deut. 7:6-9). Not all individuals in this chosen nation are saved (Rom. 9:6; 11:28).

    The Church is a called out assembly of believers who have been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Every member of the body of Christ is saved, though there are multitudes of professing Christians who may not be saved (2 Tim. 2:19).
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel traces its origin to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes).

    The Church traces its origin to the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when believers were first placed into the body of Christ.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In God’s program for Israel, His witnesses comprised a nation (Isaiah 43:10).

    In God’s program for the Church, His witnesses are among all nations (Acts 1:8).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    God’s program for Israel centered in Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37) and will again center in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-20) and during the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).

    God’s program for His Church began in Jerusalem and extended to the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). The Church is identified with the risen Christ, not with any earthly city.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The hope and expectancy of Israel was earthly, centering in the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah foretold by the prophets (Jer. 23:5-8; Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16).

    The hope and expectancy of the Church is heavenly, centering in the glorious appearing of Christ to take His people to heaven (John 14:1-3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    God’s purpose and program for Israel was revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures.

    God’s purpose and program for the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament, but was revealed by the New Testament apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:5).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 70 weeks or 490 years) involved animal sacrifices. These years will include the tribulation. Israel’s millennial history will involve the same (Ezek. 43:27).

    The Church’s history does not involve animal sacrifices. Messiah’s sacrifice is commemorated by means of the Lord’s Table.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years including also the Tribulation) involves a temple in Jerusalem. The same will be true in the Millennium (Ezek. chapters 40-48).

    During most of the Church age there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem. In this age God manifests His glory in His believers, both individually and collectively, designating them as His temple (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20; Eph. 2:21-22). This is accomplished by the indwelling ministry of God the Holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) involves a priesthood limited to the sons of Aaron, and excluding most Israelites. The same applies to the Millennium when Zadokian priests (also sons of Aaron) will serve in the temple (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 44:15).

    During the Church age every true believer is a priest and able to offer spiritual sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6). Whereas Israel had a priesthood, the Church is a priesthood.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) will terminate with the coming of the Messiah to the earth to establish His Kingdom reign.

    The Church’s history will end at the Rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rom. 11:25).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    During Israel’shistory (the 490 years of Daniel 9:24 which also includes the Tribulation) the ethnic makeup of the world is bipartite: Jews and Gentiles. This division of all people into Jews and Gentiles will also apply to those in the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies.

    During the Church age from Pentecost to the Rapture the ethnic makeup of the world is tripartite: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God (1 Cor. 10:32), the Church being composed of saved Jews and Gentiles united together in one Body (Eph. 2:15; 3:6).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    During Israel’s history, from Sinai to the Millennial Kingdom (excluding the Church age), Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by PRIORITY [that is, they will have a leading role as God’s chosen people]—see Deut. 4:6-8; Isa. 43:10; Matt. 10:5-6; Zech. 8:23.

    During the Church age, Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by EQUALITY—Jew and Gentiles united together in one body to bear testimony to a risen Christ (Col. 3:11; Gal. 3:28).
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Male Jews were circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Believing Jews were circumcised in the heart (Jer. 4:4).

    Believers of this age enjoy an internal circumcision not made with hands (Col. 2:11; Phil. 3:3). Physical circumcision is not required.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel was under the law of Moses as a rule of life.

    The Church is under the “new creature” rule (Gal. 6:15-16). See our study: What is the Believer's Rule of Life?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unbelieving Jews were physical children of Abraham and spiritual children of the devil (John 8:37-44).

    Every believer in Christ (every true member of the Church, whether Jew or Gentile) is a child of Abraham and a child of God (Rom. 4:11-12; Gal. 3:326-29). This statement does not mean that Church age believers are Israelites. See The Use of the Term "Israel" in the N.T.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel was to observe the Sabbath Day (Exodus 20:8). Sabbath observance will also take place in the Tribulation (Matt. 24:20) and in the Millennium (Ezek. 46:1,3).

    The Church is to be diligent and make every effort to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 4:9-11). This is a daily duty.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Membership into the Jewish nation was by birth or by becoming a proselyte (a convert to Judaism).

    Membership into the Church is by the new birth accomplished by the baptizing ministry of God (1 Cor. 12:13).
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Believing Jews prior to Pentecost, believing Jews during the tribulation, and believing Jews during the Kingdom reign of Christ are not members of the body of Christ.

    Believing Jews and Gentiles from Pentecost to the Rapture are members of the body of Christ.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel’s place of worship centered in Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10; John 4:20) and this will also be true in the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27) and in the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).

    The Church’s place of worship is “Where two or three are gathered together in My Name” (Matt. 18:20; John 4:21-24). Christ is in the midst of His Churches (Rev. 1:13, 20).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Israel is likened to the wife of Jehovah, often an unfaithful wife (Hosea).

    The Church is the beloved Bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 19:7-8) to be one day presented blameless and spotless (Eph. 5:27).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The Middletown Bible Church
    349 East Street
    Middletown, CT 06457
    (860) 346-0907

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/israelch.htm
     
  3. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Linda,

    Thanks for the post! I actually have that somewhere on my PC but had forgotten about it. Middletown Bible has some really good stuff on their site!

    Do not agree with this point: "Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) will terminate with the coming of the Messiah to the earth to establish His Kingdom reign."

    I see God's relationship with Israel continuing.
     
  4. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Linda,

    should also have added that I see Christ's relationship with the church continuing as well. How this all blends together as far as the church and Israel in the MK and in the eternal state is not the subject of detailed revelation, or in other words, I do not have a clue!
     
  5. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    1
    Interesting, I believe this says it all because ALL of the Church are redeemed. Not all of Israel, God's chosen people, "The Elect???" are redeemed.
     
  6. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Church is composed of born agan, blood washed believers (Jew and Gentile). Israel is God's chosen people (Deut. 7:6-9).

    Israel still exists as a nation just as prophecy foretold it would. The nation Israel is back in its land in preparation for the literal fulfillment of all the prophecies pertaining to it. This supports the belief that God has not permanently rejected the nation Israel, but has only temporarily set them aside until He is ready to fulfill His promises to them.

    Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:5)

    "Remnant" often refers to God's preservation of a portion of Israel through the centuries of judgment. He has promised through His covenants with Abraham and David that a remnant will be preserved to inherit the Messianic kingdom.

    Election comes after redemption--NOBODY is "elected" or "predestined" to be redeemed/saved.
     
  7. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0

    The only way you get into the church, the body of Christ, is to be redeemed. Of course, all the church is redeemed. Israel as a nation was chosen as the particular object of God's grace in the OT as far as the covenant promises through Abraham, the Law, the Land Covenant, the Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant which they have not yet received. God chose Israel above all other nations of the earth to set His love upon her for His sovereign purpose.


    One day "all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."
     
  8. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Linda,
    I am totally with you till you get to here...
    WHAT?!?!?! I never saw that one coming! You did not get that from Middletown Bible!
    In Eph 1:4, the word "chosen" is eklegomai the root for eklektos "elect". We were elect in him before the foundation of the world, that definitely precedes "redemption".

    "Predestinated" (Eph 1:5) is prohoridzw (w = omega, long oh sound) and means "to predetermine, decide before hand". We get our word "horizon" from this Greek root, literally it is to determine the horizon before.

    I have given you Scripture that says we are chosen from before the foundation of the world. What Scripture can you suggest that would support that we are not chosen till after our redemption???
     
  9. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ruth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
     
  10. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    LeB,

    First, Ruth was not a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. She was not a member of the "church", "the body of Christ". She was a Gentile who proselytized and BECAME a Jew, in every sense of the word except for DNA. Had she been a man, circumcision would have been performed to complete her acceptance of and identification with the Abrahamic Covenant.

    Second, she was not a "spiritual Israelite" she became a full Israelite. Does her presence in the Messianic line somehow pollute the purity of His descent from David? I think not. She was Jew in every way except birth.

    The story of Ruth is a great story of love and God's grace, but it has little to do with the question at hand.
     
  11. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Election is based on God's foreknowledge

    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father
    , through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

    Election means God planned man's salvation before the creation. It means God, by his foreknowledge, has predestinated the Christian to a glorious future. It is not who is predestinated, but what we are predestinated to.

    Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Ephesians 1:5)

    In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Ephesians 1:11)

    Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1 Peter 1:3-4)


    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:29-30)


    Election does not mean God arbitrarily chooses who will be saved and who will not be. He has revealed that He wants all men to be saved.

    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

    No, I didn't get that from Middletown Bible Church--I got that from God's Word. I am NOT a Calvinist who believes in this "double predestination" stuff. God foreknows, then He predestinates. The Bible is clear that men are not elected to destruction. Men do not go to hell because of election, but because they reject or neglect the gospel. God does not "elect" some to be saved and some to be lost.

    BTW, Middletown Bible Church does not teach Reformed/Calvinist Theology--which means they don't teach "double predestination".
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    With all due respect my sister, historic calvinism does not teach double-predestination (if we are defining the term the same) or what some of the divines called pre-damnation. Men who are ignornant of the truth and seem (in my estimation) to have an agenda concernign the doctrines of grace have characterized calvinism in general as either hyper-calvinism (John. R. Rice) or as double-predestination.

    Its like Dave Hunt trying to prove Spurgeon didn't believe/teach particular redemption. In their zeal for what they believe is truth they end up distorting it and teaching un-truth.
     
  13. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    RefB,

    I found a copy of Ian Murray's, The Puritan Hope in the web last night (well actually early this AM) for about 9$ delvd. I am going to order it and read. Have not read that one. If your pastor suggested it to you, I will assume that it must be good. I will also assume that it presents a strong case for the postmil position since that was the dominant position of the Puritans after about 1652, with a few notable exceptions. Of course, Jonathan Edwards was strongly postmil and has had a dominant influence on the New England puritans.

    In any case, I always try to read the best that the other side has to offer, so I will study through this one as well.

    Have you thought about reading what the other position actually says rather than reading what non-dispies say they say? I would highly suggest Ryrie's Dispensationalism, updated from his earlier Dispensationalism Today. IMO he fairly represents the D position and has some pretty thorough discussion of CT and PD as well as the historical truth about CT not being but a few years older than D (which always seems to get obscured). I would suggest that it is about the best general treatment that the D side has to offer. You may not be comfortable reading it. I doubt your pastor would suggest that one. Has he read it? If all he has read is the treatment that D has received in WTJ, JETS, et al, and in more extensive works by Sproul, Matheson, DeMar, Gentry, Chilton, et al, THEN, he probably has not REALLY read a fair treatment of the D position.

    I found a couple of copies of Ryries work for about 6$ a piece delvd. as well as his 1956 The Basis of the Premillennial Faith. If you are interested in getting one, I will be glad to put you onto a source for a good used copy, relatively cheap.

    Again, I understand that not everyone is comfortable reading the best that the other side has to offer, but that has generally been my practice in working through most theological issues.

    RJP
     
  14. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Suggest the thread "Foreknowledge, foreknown, predestined" to continue this topic in a more appropriate place and to read what has been posted there. Foreknowledge is more than to know ahead of time, see posts there...

    Also see discussion of God’s sovereign will versus His heart’s desire at same thread...

    As already noted, true Calvinism does not teach "double predestination", that perception would most likely have been gleaned from reading what others say that C teaches. No need for double predestination anyway, we are all on our way to hell already anyway. Predestination does not in any way relate to the damnation of the lost, but rather to the salvation of the elect. Again, see a few of my posts on other thread, and pick up there.

    I fully agree with this statement, BUT God does elect some to be saved. That is the point of Biblical election, no one deserves salvation, but God in His sovereignty determines that some will be saved out of mass of humanity destined for hell. Election does not send anyone to hell, it only assures that some will make it to heaven.

    Sorry, did not accurately remember MBCs position on this. From a very quick read, I did note that in their discussion titled "God’s Willingness and Man’s Unwillingness" they offer no meaningful interaction with the NT terms concerning sovereignty and election.

    BUT I MUST ADD, that I do recall reading a good bit of their other material regarding salvation (Lordship, two natures, etc) and am in full agreement to the best of my recollection! Whosoever will MAY come! My position on sovereignty and grace does not deny that at all! Can't really pretend to be an able representitive of "Calvinism" on this, don't really want to. I am getting to the point where I like labels less and less.
     
    #54 rjprince, Sep 10, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 10, 2007
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    4,894
    Likes Received:
    28
    I have no problem reading what each side writes concerning their position. If we are to discuss the issues and seek to correct an error where we think there is one, we need to understand what the other person really believes so we can accurately represent it.

    My problem with reading is I am so scattered. Since my Scripture study brought me to Romans 11 and so I pulled out the Puritan Hope by Iain Murray to see what he said about the passage too. I will definitately check out the book recommendation you have. I probably won't right away because I want to first make a careful study of the Scirptures. I am peeking into to other writings on these subjects, but I want to be sure I have a firm grasp on the relevant Scriptures for this subject.
     
  16. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    Well said. I have trouble fitting into molds myself.
     
  17. J.D.

    J.D. Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    11
    rjprince said:
    Yes, probably a bit overstated, but nevertheless it does basically represent why I find CT a better choice than Dispy. It seems to me that the NT writers (Paul especially) speaks of "revealing mysteries which were hid", "the things written before were written for our learning", "which things were an allegory", etc. Therefore, the NT is an explanation of the OT, not visa versa.
     
  18. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I do not think it was overstated at all. When you take a clear OT promise and say that it does not mean what it clearly states in detailed and specific terms on the basis of a brief general statement in the NT that in no way addressed the specifics of the OT passage, that does violence to the Word of God. You cannot take a NT passage and reverse the clear statements of the OT and still remain faithful to the text. That is what CT does on numerous occasions.
     
  19. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    JD,

    Systematizing on the basis of the specific OT covenants is not what CT is all about. CT is all about systematizing all of Scripture on the basis of three covenants that are nowhere identified of defined in the whole of Scripture.

    I could easily define most of my theology in terms of the literal covenants of Scripture. There is no way I could make my theology fit within the confines of CT.

    RJP
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
Loading...