The church was not a mystery????? Where in the world does one get that conclusion. Paul made it very clear that the church was kept back from the knowledge of men in times of old.
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The Church Not a Mystery
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The church was not a mystery????? Where in the world does one get that conclusion. Paul made it very clear that the church was kept back from the knowledge of men in times of old.
I get it from Scripture!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Do you have paul still in your bible?
Will you quote that Scripture for me. I use KJV primarily and can't seem to find that passage which teaches a "snatching away" of the Church!
Bronconagurski
New Member
Will you quote that Scripture for me. I use KJV primarily and can't seem to find that passage which teaches a "snatching away" of the Church!
I know I can. Consider the following word that is translated caught up in the KJV.
Greek Strong's Number: 726
Greek Word: ἁρπάζω
Transliteration: harpazō
Phonetic Pronunciation:har-pad'-zo
Root: from a derivative of <G138>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:472,80
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Catch, Force, Pluck, Snatch, Spoil, Spoiling
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
catch up 4
take by force 3
catch away 2
pluck 2
catch 1
pull 1
[Total Count: 13]
from a derivative of <G138> (haireomai); to seize (in various applications) :- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Here is the scripture from which it comes.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I know I can. Consider the following word that is translated caught up in the KJV.
Greek Strong's Number: 726
Greek Word: ἁρπάζω
Transliteration: harpazō
Phonetic Pronunciation:har-pad'-zo
Root: from a derivative of <G138>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:472,80
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Catch, Force, Pluck, Snatch, Spoil, Spoiling
Usage Notes:
English Words used in KJV:
catch up 4
take by force 3
catch away 2
pluck 2
catch 1
pull 1
[Total Count: 13]
from a derivative of <G138> (haireomai); to seize (in various applications) :- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
Here is the scripture from which it comes.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The passage from Thessalonians says nothing about a pre-trib rapture. Paul is simply comforting the believers on the truth of the resurrection. It is simply additional information about the general resurrection of John 5:28, 29. If this is the "snatching away" of the Church why does it picture the return of Jesus Christ with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God? That is exactly the picture of the return of Jesus Christ in power and glory, not "snatching away" the Church! If He wanted to "snatch them away" He could do it from the right hand of the Father! Furthermore, who does He bring with Him and why?
Bronconagurski
New Member
The passage from Thessalonians says nothing about a pre-trib rapture. Paul is simply comforting the believers on the truth of the resurrection. It is simply additional information about the general resurrection of John 5:28, 29. If this is the "snatching away" of the Church why does it picture the return of Jesus Christ with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God? That is exactly the picture of the return of Jesus Christ in power and glory, not "snatching away" the Church! If He wanted to "snatch them away" He could do it from the right hand of the Father! Furthermore, who does He bring with Him and why?
I showed you the word that means a snatching away, yet you choose to explain it away. Typical. Caught up means to snatch away or take by force. The evidence is undeniable, you choose to contradict the scriptures.
If you want to talk logic, then why didn't Jesus die in the Old Testament since you say the church started then? He could have easily done it, as you say. You always want your cake and eat it too.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I showed you the word that means a snatching away, yet you choose to explain it away. Typical. Caught up means to snatch away or take by force.
I thought that the Rapture was the "blessed hope" of dispensationalists yet here you tell me that God must "take them by force"! Shame, Shame, Shame on you!
It is you who are denying Scripture, John 5:28, 29!The evidence is undeniable, you choose to contradict the scriptures.
Regardless of the time in history when Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sin of the elect the New Covenant would have been in place and the Old Covenant gone for ever!If you want to talk logic, then why didn't Jesus die in the Old Testament since you say the church started then? He could have easily done it, as you say. You always want your cake and eat it too.
John 8:32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
I thought that the Rapture was the "blessed hope" of dispensationalists yet here you tell me that God must "take them by force"! Shame, Shame, Shame on you!
It is you who are denying Scripture, John 5:28, 29!
Regardless of the time in history when Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sin of the elect the New Covenant would have been in place and the Old Covenant gone for ever!
John 8:32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
how about the Apostle john? To him, the coming of jesus for us was a blessed hope, for when we all see jesus face to face, shall become glorifed and become in our physical forms as He now is!
the Church IS taken away to meet the lord in the air...
THAT much we know, we just disagree among Dispy as to the timing o fit!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
how about the Apostle john? To him, the coming of jesus for us was a blessed hope, for when we all see jesus face to face, shall become glorifed and become in our physical forms as He now is!
That is correct and happens at the Resurrection of the Saints which occurs at the General Resurrection of ALL the dead as the Apostle John tells us in John 5:28, 29.
the Church IS taken away to meet the lord in the air...
THAT much we know, we just disagree among Dispy as to the timing o fit!
Actually you just think you know as long as you deny the plain teaching of Scripture!
That is correct and happens at the Resurrection of the Saints which occurs at the General Resurrection of ALL the dead as the Apostle John tells us in John 5:28, 29.
Actually you just think you know as long as you deny the plain teaching of Scripture!
saints and sinners in two different resurrections, as saints in the first resurrection, at return of Christ, while sinners at end of the Age, at great White throne!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:sleeping_2:saints and sinners in two different resurrections, as saints in the first resurrection, at return of Christ, while sinners at end of the Age, at great White throne!
:sleeping_2:
we meet jesus as the saviour/ sinners will meet him as the judge!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
we meet jesus as the saviour/ sinners will meet him as the judge!
Glad to see you have come to believe that all mankind will be at the Great White Throne!
Glad to see you have come to believe that all mankind will be at the Great White Throne!
saints appear befor ethe bhema seat of Christ, sinners him upon Great white Throne!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
saints appear befor ethe bhema seat of Christ, sinners him upon Great white Throne!
You have no problem with repetition but you are lacking when it comes to Scriptural evidence!
You have no problem with repetition but you are lacking when it comes to Scriptural evidence!
Bible states that ONLY the saints will be resurrection gloried byjesus at His return, while sinners remain as is untila after the Millimium!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Bible states that ONLY the saints will be resurrection gloried byjesus at His return, while sinners remain as is untila after the Millimium!
Then present the passage of Scripture to prove what you say. you are just repeating yourself!
Then present the passage of Scripture to prove what you say. you are just repeating yourself!
How about these verses!
1 Corinthians 3 v.10b-15
1 Thessalonians 4:17,
These verses tell us that when jesus comes back , the saints shall be raised glorified, to be judged by their Lord for rewards...
Revelation 20:11-15
Does NOT mention the Church snatched away, saints being glorified, entirelly diiferent scenerio, as all those there because names NOT in Book of Life, and shall have their works judge them as to punishment!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am going to take the liberty of posting the passages you referenced so folks interested would not have to look them up. I also posted a little more from 1 Thessalonians to put the verse you referenced in context!
1 Corinthians 3:10.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I looked for "bema seat" and "judgment" but could find neither!
1 Thessalonians 4:17.
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Still no "bema seat" or "judgment"! But you might try leading verse 13. Paul is kind enough to comfort the believers that those loved ones who have already died would undergo the resurrection of the body. There is no need for him to discuss the resurrection of those who died unsaved; and he did not but Jesus Christ does in John 5:28, 29!
Revelation 20:11-15
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Not exactly! The general resurrection has occurred just as Jesus Christ said in John 5:28, 29. Now it is time for the judgment at the Great White Throne where all, "small and great", shall appear.
How about these verses!
1 Corinthians 3 v.10b-15
1 Corinthians 3:10.
10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13. Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I looked for "bema seat" and "judgment" but could find neither!
1 Thessalonians 4:17,
These verses tell us that when jesus comes back , the saints shall be raised glorified, to be judged by their Lord for rewards...
1 Thessalonians 4:17.
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Still no "bema seat" or "judgment"! But you might try leading verse 13. Paul is kind enough to comfort the believers that those loved ones who have already died would undergo the resurrection of the body. There is no need for him to discuss the resurrection of those who died unsaved; and he did not but Jesus Christ does in John 5:28, 29!
Revelation 20:11-15
Does NOT mention the Church snatched away, saints being glorified, entirelly diiferent scenerio, as all those there because names NOT in Book of Life, and shall have their works judge them as to punishment!
Revelation 20:11-15
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Not exactly! The general resurrection has occurred just as Jesus Christ said in John 5:28, 29. Now it is time for the judgment at the Great White Throne where all, "small and great", shall appear.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Bible states that ONLY the saints will be resurrection gloried byjesus at His return, while sinners remain as is untila after the Millimium!
Just where does the Bible say that?