The church of Christ and the conversion of the Gentiles (Acts 10, cf. Acts 15)

[TCGreek]

I have not avoided them I am still seeking to understand how you harmonize all the conversion accounts in the book of Acts and then proclaim that your saved only the way Cornelius was saved. When Acts 2:41 says that they were added to the church when they recieved the word and were being baptized.

Acts 2:41

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
NKJV

When were they added to the them?

So was Cornelius added to the church when he received the H.S. or after his baptism?

Where in all the scripture does it say that baptism in water is only a sign of being saved. Romans 6:3,4 does not say this.

Cornelius and his were already baptized by the Spirit into the invisible body of Christ (1Cor 12:13) but went onto water-baptism as physical evidence of that.

I find it interesting that as Peter retells the events of Acts 10, in chps 11 and 15, he never mentions water baptism, but either repentance or faith.

 

[Olivencia]

TCGReek,

Did you notice something else as well? When Peter defended the Gentiles inclusion into the New Testament church there is no record of him appealing to their water baptism but to their receptiuon of the Holy Spiirt (Acts 11:15-17; Acts 15:8). Why would he focus so much on them receiving the Holy Spirit? I'm sure you know why :thumbs:

 

[TCGreek]

TCGReek,

Did you notice something else as well? When Peter defended the Gentiles inclusion into the New Testament church there is no record of him appealing to their water baptism but to their receptiuon of the Holy Spiirt (Acts 11:15-17; Acts 15:8). Why would he focus so much on them receiving the Holy Spirit? I'm sure you know why :thumbs:

Yes, good observation.

 

[zrs6v4]

There is a difference between believing in something and believing ON something. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is the key. When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you are turning from the way you were going - or in other words "repent". It's not a work - but a response to faith in Jesus Christ.

truth...........

 

[JSM17]

You say that the Jews on the day of Pentecost were saved before they recieved the baptism of the H.S. Acts 2:4

You say that the Gentiles were saved through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So are you claiming that Jews are saved in a different manner than the Gentiles today?

 

[JSM17]

Acts 10:44-47
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

It is clear to me that they heard the word and the H.S. fell upon them.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

I see that the gift of the H.S. fell upon them, which would indicate that they were in right standing to receive the H.S.46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

I can conclude in this passage it seems to me that they had receive the gift of the H.S. before water baptism.

Acts 11:15-18

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

I see this as Peter speaking of how the H.S. was poured out upon the twelve who received power as well, spoke in tongues (Languages) not known before this pouring out. I believe the Apostles were saved before the out pouring of the Spirit, Jesus had breathed the H.S on them in the upper room before He ascended.
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

This does indicate to me that Jesus baptized this man and his family with that in which He promised.

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"



18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying,"Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

Acts 15:7-11

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

God knew the heart of Cornelius and acknowledged them by Giving the H.S.
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I see this as the fact that they were purified by the message that Peter brought to them.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

This seems to say that the Jews and the Gentiles are saved in the same manner.


Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

The were convicted of the things they just heard, they wanted to know what should they do.

38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It seems as if they believed already, Peter makes no mention of telling them to believe, he tells them to repent and be baptized (Holy Spirit or Water) for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the H.S.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV

I am having a hard time harmonizing the ideas shown in Acts 10, 11, and 15 with what I see in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16 (Lydia), Acts 19, Acts 22.

Its not that I am not being honest, I have already stated that much of Cornelius's conversion is very strange in light of other passages. For me it about harmonizing the summation of scripture when it comes to salvation and the Gospel.

 

[TCGreek]

You say that the Jews on the day of Pentecost were saved before they recieved the baptism of the H.S. Acts 2:4

Are you abandoning your coc (church of Christ) training? I thought the Holy Spirit only fell on the 12 at Pentecost?

You say that the Gentiles were saved through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So are you claiming that Jews are saved in a different manner than the Gentiles today?

Every believer is saved by calling on the name of the Lord. That's the genius of Paul's reasoning in Romans 10:6-15.

Notice that Cornelius and his were told that it is through faith people receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43);

And then the Holy Spirit came on them. Their faith in what they just heard procured the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:6-9).

One should think no differently about the Jews who were convicted by the work of the Spirit through the gospel preached on Pentecost.

 

[TCGreek]

Acts 10:44-47
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

It is clear to me that they heard the word and the H.S. fell upon them.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

I see that the gift of the H.S. fell upon them, which would indicate that they were in right standing to receive the H.S.46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
NKJV

I can conclude in this passage it seems to me that they had receive the gift of the H.S. before water baptism.

Acts 11:15-18

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

I see this as Peter speaking of how the H.S. was poured out upon the twelve who received power as well, spoke in tongues (Languages) not known before this pouring out. I believe the Apostles were saved before the out pouring of the Spirit, Jesus had breathed the H.S on them in the upper room before He ascended.
16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

This does indicate to me that Jesus baptized this man and his family with that in which He promised.

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"



18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying,"Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
NKJV

Acts 15:7-11

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them:"Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

God knew the heart of Cornelius and acknowledged them by Giving the H.S.
9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I see this as the fact that they were purified by the message that Peter brought to them.
10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

This seems to say that the Jews and the Gentiles are saved in the same manner.


Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

The were convicted of the things they just heard, they wanted to know what should they do.

38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It seems as if they believed already, Peter makes no mention of telling them to believe, he tells them to repent and be baptized (Holy Spirit or Water) for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the H.S.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV

I am having a hard time harmonizing the ideas shown in Acts 10, 11, and 15 with what I see in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16 (Lydia), Acts 19, Acts 22.

Its not that I am not being honest, I have already stated that much of Cornelius's conversion is very strange in light of other passages. For me it about harmonizing the summation of scripture when it comes to salvation and the Gospel.

The book of Acts is a historical-transitional-narrative.

That is why there are so many anomalies.

Turn to a didactic book like Romans to learn how a person is justified before God, is in right standing before God.

As a footnote, Peter told them that forgiveness comes through faith in Jesus (Acts 10:43).

Again, Peter tells us that their hearts were cleansed through faith (Acts 15:9).

Peter is so clear. Let's not confuse the apostle.

 

[JSM17]

Are you abandoning your coc (church of Christ) training? I thought the Holy Spirit only fell on the 12 at Pentecost?

I expect this kinda of talk, its refreshing to know that you have everything done perfectly with your group of people as well (sarcasm). If someone is truly searching let's not mock them because they do not believe exactly with what you believe. I could be doing a lot of other things right know, but choose to sit and really look at these conversion accounts and realize that I need to meditate on them, and by the way the congregation is not sitting in my living room telling me what to believe, its me and the bible, prayer and God (in no particular order). I am not going to be judge based upon what Joe whoever believes at whatever church here or there, I will be judged based upon the word of God.

 

[TCGreek]

I expect this kinda of talk, its refreshing to know that you have everything done perfectly with your group of people as well (sarcasm). If someone is truly searching let's not mock them because they do not believe exactly with what you believe. I could be doing a lot of other things right know, but choose to sit and really look at these conversion accounts and realize that I need to meditate on them, and by the way the congregation is not sitting in my living room telling me what to believe, its me and the bible, prayer and God (in no particular order). I am not going to be judge based upon what Joe whoever believes at whatever church here or there, I will be judged based upon the word of God.

It was never my intent to offend. Just an honest observation.

Well, blessings on your search.

 

[JSM17]

Are you abandoning your coc (church of Christ) training? I thought the Holy Spirit only fell on the 12 at Pentecost?

Acts2:7 declares that those who spoke in tongues were Galileans and the multitude of people had yet to receive the word preached, but I believe that on that day when Peter preached to them they were told what to do in order to receive the Gift of the H.S. So indeed the H.S. was poured out upon them that day and continues til this day when people of obey God (Acts5:32)

Nobody in the church of Christ had to train me on this one, most of them would not agree with me on the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TCGreek]

Acts2:7 declares that those who spoke in tongues were Galileans and the multitude of people had yet to receive the word preached, but I believe that on that day when Peter preached to them they were told what to do in order to receive the Gift of the H.S. So indeed the H.S. was poured out upon them that day and continues til this day when people of obey God (Acts5:32)

Nobody in the church of Christ had to train me on this one, most of them would not agree with me on the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Now you wish to confuse me.

Your original reference was Acts 2:4, which applies only to the 12 in CoC way of thinking.

Not the multitude thereafter!

 

[JSM17]

Acts 2:4-7

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 The Crowd's Response And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?NKJV

Acts 2:4-7

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 The Crowd's Response And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
NKJV

Acts 2:38

38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.NKJV


on that day all of the Apostles and those who were obedient to the Gospel received the Holy Spirit. I do not think that all received tongues and all did not receive the same measure of Power which the H.S. would come with as Christ said in ch. 1 and Mark 9:1

 

[TCGreek]

Who received the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4?

 

[JSM17]

Acts 2:4-7

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 The Crowd's Response And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?NKJV

I believe they in verse 4 refers to the Galileans in verse 7 Which I assume are the apostles. I do not believe that those who had not heard the message yet from Peter received the H.S. in verse 4.