JoeT
Member
I'm sorry your god-o-meter isn't working corretly, if one seeks truth, what is real, he seeks God. The True God.
JoeT
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The Church
- Thread starter Tim71
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I'm sorry your god-o-meter isn't working corretly, if one seeks truth, what is real, he seeks God. The True God.
JoeT
Particular
Well-Known Member
I test it with scripture.
If a catechism or concord is written and it is not in agreement with the context of scripture, the catechism or concord is wrong.
Sadly, the double-speak of the Roman catechism is so twisted that it is hard to know what it is actually saying. This is why 10 priests interviewed will have 10 different answers. This is why the Franciscans, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, the Benedictines, take your pick of at least 16 other orders all were created. They disagree on what the catechism actually means.
So, you can go through the catechism and get thoroughly confused or you can read scripture and test all words of men against what God says.
JoeT
Member
I think your god-o-meter must be broke. One who seeks truth, ultimately finds God. You really believe that to congregate' is salvation? Explain then how the Holy Spirit can guide so many different congregates in one truth while they obviously hold different truths. If the Holy Spirit is true to Himself how then does He teach different things to different folks? Which Church is true? There can only be one (read my previous post). Is yours true 'enough'? How about mine, is it 'true enough?
JoeT
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Particular
Well-Known Member
The Bible says this about man seeking God.
Romans 3:10-18 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
The Bible says this about God choosing men.
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Let God's word be true and every man a liar.
JoeT
Member
Excuse me if I said that "Church" is only for the righteous. In fact I didn't say Church is only for the righteous.
Predestined for salvation and predestined for damnation? Really? Then our sins are God's fault, He made us do it in pre-commanding them?
Indeed
JoeT
Particular
Well-Known Member
You said:
One who seeks truth, ultimately finds God.
I just shared scripture. You are the one saying it's God's fault.
God answers your complaint:
Romans 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
JoeT
Member
I can't speak to the Concord, in fact, I think I would agree that it has errors. As to the Catechism of the Catholic Church it is a teaching tool. Its purpose is not to translate Scripture, rather to teach as the Church was commissioned to teach - and Baptize.
The double speak you hear is caused by your amplifiers being out of sync. I challenge you to explain why there are different orders in the Church, do they contradict doctrine or dogma, and if so how?
I have gone through the catechism and to date have found no contradiction with Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, The Church, or the Early Church Fathers. You seemed to have a strong criticism of the CCC, have you gone through it to find contradictions with Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, The Church, or the Early Church Fathers?
JoeT
JoeT
Member
And I just shared the logical conclusion of one who seeks 'truth'. Does you faith prohibit reasoning?
I wasn't aware I was complaining. How did you come to that conclusion?
Particular
Well-Known Member
Joe, I have read various parts of the catechism. It is filled with double-speak. Perhaps you haven't tested it against scripture so you are ignorant of what you don't know.
The catachism has been changed and adjusted over the centuries so the Roman Church isn't as consistent as you imagine.
What I am ultimately saying is that the Church at Rome has significant flaws and theological misunderstandings. Reform was required and sadly Rome pridefully refused.
Your church has a history of brutal behavior filled with murderous actions. It is not the pure, innocent dove you imagine it to be.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Did you read the text. Your concern is answered by God.
JoeT
Member
Would could continue round for round, or you could bring forward a specific instance of ignorance in the 'True' faith.
JoeT
Particular
Well-Known Member
Here you go.
A list of false teachings in the Roman Catholic Church | CARM.org
The Catholic church is the one true church
CCC 2105 "The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is 'the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.' By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them 'to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live.' The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies."
Infallibility of the Catholic Church
CCC 2035, "The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed."
Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture
CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."
The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ
CCC 2034, "The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are 'authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.' The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for."
The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation
CCC 846, "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
Sacred Tradition equal to scripture
CCC 82, ". . .the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence'."
Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works
CCC 2036, "The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the creator, is necessary for salvation."
CCC 2080, "The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason."
CCC 2068, "so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,"
Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church
"For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation,," (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3).
Grace can be merited
CCC 2010, "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification."
CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others
1477, "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."
Penance is necessary for salvation
CCC 980, “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn."
Purgatory
CCC 1031, "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
CCC 1475, "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
Indulgences
CCC 1471, "The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence? 'An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.' 'An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.' The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead."
CCC 1478, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
CCC 1498, "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory."
CCC 1472, "...On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin..."
Mary (there are many false doctrines concerning Mary found in Roman Catholicism, here are a few)
Mary is Mediatrix, CCC 969, "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'"
Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation, CCC 969, "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..."
Mary delivers souls from death, CCC 966, "...You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."
Prayer to the saints
CCC 2677, "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ
CCC 1374, "In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."
CCC 1376, "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."
JoeT
Member
The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.” By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live. The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies. [CCC 2105]
Apostolicam Actuositatem postulates and declares that each of us is a disciple of Christ. The two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Thus, it is our moral duty to you and to the societies we live in that the laymen evangelize to infuse Christian spirit into that society. I would suggest that the Baptist Church teaches and does the same thing. True worship, true morals subsist in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Hence we become the light of the world. Then I would ask, is not Christ your Lord? Is He not Lord over all creation in particular all human societies? Or, do you just proclaim Him Lord within the confines of the four walls of your meeting place? This paragraph speaks to the responsibilities of the laity in its social duties of religion and the right to religious freedom. Paragraphs related to the “one Church” start at 833 and finish at 870.
The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed. [CCC 2035]
This is related to the authority of the universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops. They are they successors of the Apostles and are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ and charged to teach a Divine truth divinely.
"The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." [CCC 100]
The faithful are not bound by the force of “private interpretations”. “Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." [2 Peter 1:20]. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"). [CCC 113]. Don’t forget while the Holy Spirit does indeed act on all the faithful it was He who was promised to the Church.
The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice." The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for. [CCC 2034].
It was the Church that was commissioned to teach and to Baptize, not the laity. There is a hierarchy established in Scripture. "Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." [Acts 20:28] also, “And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches." [1 Corinthians 12:28]
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
I'll let the next paragraph speak to no. 846Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. [CCC 846]
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: (my emphases)
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [CCC 847]
I'll be happy to go into detail on any one of these issues. However, it is quit obvious from the selections each was chosen based on your prejudices and hatred of the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, if you don’t mind I’ll finish the remainder sometime tomorrow.
JoeT
You only have one thing when it comes to Scripture - your own interpretation of it.
No, that is not true. All religious orders and priests believe the teachings of the Church, they look to the head Bishop for clarification of things. There is not one priest who denies what is written about the Holy Eucharist for example. You simply have us confused with your own Baptist sect where the 1st Baptist on Main St. has one interpretation and the 2nd Baptist on Oak St. has another - and that is within one church. Do You really want me to mention the other 30,000 Christian sects out there where each one has even more differences than the other?
The catechism is merely a further expounding of the words written in Scripture. Go to a bookstore and you will find hundreds of books by Preachers and Pastors doing the same thing. The only difference is the catechism has the knowledge of the Church as a whole, not different men with different scriptural interpretations.
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Good grief, what is wrong with that?
This is what virtually all Christians believed right up until your guy, John Smyth came along and rejected the Church of England and it's teaching about the Holy Eucharist. Then it was Zwingli who really got the non "Real Presence" thing started and people like yourself started with grape juice and crackers.
And by the way, CARM is hardly an unbiased source, so I personally give them little credibility.
Particular
Well-Known Member
I just quoted it. I didn't interpret it.
The double-speak of the Roman catechism is really bad. No one should cling to it as their source of guidance. Peter (ironic that he is erroneously claimed as first Pope) warns us about Rome just before his deathc.
2 Peter 2:1-3
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
The Roman Church's greed and exploitation is easily seen in history.
The catechism is an intentional muddying of scripture in order to force the masses to be dependent upon a group of priests for salvation. It is why Luther's recognition of the priesthood of believers was hated by Rome. All believers are the priesthood, not just a select group of elites.
Now listen, I have met a remnant of true believers within the Roman Church. They are few and it is mostly because their priests have elected to read the Bible and then pick only the nuggets of truth from the catechism, while tossing out the vast majority of falseness found in the catechism. To that remnant, I wish they had authority to reform the mother church. But, they don't. They, instead, reform the little group in which they reside.
Particular
Well-Known Member
Peter rejected the Roman Church.
2 Peter 2:1-3 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
JoeT
Member
Particular
Well-Known Member
Sure that occurs to me. Then I let scripture speak and it becomes clear that the Roman Church needed reformation due to false statements in its catechism that led the church to act in horrifically evil ways that came directly from hell.
When the catechism speaks accurately to scripture, we accept it. When it speaks falsely to scripture, we remove the false teaching. That is what reform does.
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