The City Church

[Squire Robertsson]

Some observations on this thread:

• There are many cases of unnecessary duplication of congregations. Much of it comes from the unbending sin nature of man. So, deal with it. Don't let the perfect be an enemy of the good enough.
• For me, the optimal size of a congregation is +/-500. Large enough to support a variety of ministries, yet small enough for everybody to serve.
• I am a small c calvinist. I more properly describe myself as a Historic Northern Regular Baptist. I don't ordinarily re-fight the 30 Years War. But, I view pedo-baptism as borderline heresy. So, there's no way I'd join a Presbyterian church. Better to take the traditional Baptist route. Evangelize, see folks converted, disciple them and form a new congregation.

 

[Jerome]

There are a few exceptions that call in question the consistent pattern of churches identified by one location. For example, Romans 16:5 suggests more than one church in Rome -- one of which met in Priscilla's and Aquilla's house. Also Colossians 4:15 is similar.

Knollys ended up concluding that Church was "an Homogenial word, As Water in the Sea, in a River, in a Well, and in a Spoon, is called Water."

books.google.com/books?id=wGVnAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA9

Knollys notes that Church is used in Scripture for the general assembly [Heb. 12:23 "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven"], as well as for all the assemblies of a city/town/village[I Cor 1:2 "the church of God which is at Corinth" Rom 16:1 "the church which is at Cenchrea"], as well as for each particular assembly [Col 4:15 "Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house."].

Knollys also notes 1 Corinthians 14:34, where the church in Corinth is instructed to "Let your women keep silence in the churches."

 

[thatbrian]

Often Christ will utter a straightforward maxim that lends its meaning to a subject, not vice versa: A good tree cannot bear corrupt fruit, Where the corpse is the vultures will gather, etc. Paul did the same: Evil communications corrupt good manners (and, no, Menander is NOT the source material for that adage).

Where two or three are gathered is the same way.

Matthew 18 concludes with applying the universal principles that give the act of discipline its authority to all operations of the church.

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.​

Even if I were to grant you that, which I don't due to the context, to say that this is Jesus explaining what a local church is or how it operates is not doing justice to the text.

 

[thatbrian]

Watchman "Nee taught that there should only be one church in every city, that Christians should meet together simply as believers living in the same city regardless of differences in doctrine or practice...

Based on the unity which Christ called His church to, I have to agree with Nee. Of course, I've already been persuaded biblically prior to ever knowing Nee's view on the subject.

The first objection, which we've already heard, is that a city like NY has too great a Christian population to practically have one gathering, and I think that Nee was an intelligent enough fellow to understand that, as well.

The way in which this works out practically, as I would argue it did in the early church, is that the city is a network of small congregations. I know, some/most Baptists will lose their minds over such an idea, but I think there is evidence that in large cities and regions, there were city/regional churches made up of smaller congregations. A house church in a city was not an independent entity. It was not a law unto itself. It was part of a network of churches in that city, which also means that there was some structure of leadership, which again is not an idea which many Baptists could not even entertain. . .

 

[Jerome]

Based on the unity which Christ called His church to, I have to agree with Nee.

Question and Answer - How does the teaching of Watchman Nee differ from the teaching of Reformed theology?

 

[Aaron]

Even if I were to grant you that, which I don't due to the context, to say that this is Jesus explaining what a local church is or how it operates is not doing justice to the text.

You will find that my original post contains more than a reference to this one verse.

 

[Jerome]

Watchman "Nee taught that there should only be one church in every city, that Christians should meet together simply as believers living in the same city regardless of differences in doctrine or practice

Based on the unity which Christ called His church to, I have to agree with Nee

So how's your fellowshipping with these Watchman Nee folks nearby you going?

Oh, it's not?

 

[rlvaughn]

Knollys ended up concluding that Church was "an Homogenial word, As Water in the Sea, in a River, in a Well, and in a Spoon, is called Water."

Best I could tell, by "homogenial word" Knollys simply means that the same word is used whether talking about all believers, all believers in a city, all believers meeting in a house, etc. Would that be your understanding of his meaning?

 

[rlvaughn]

The first objection, which we've already heard, is that a city like NY has too great a Christian population to practically have one gathering, and I think that Nee was an intelligent enough fellow to understand that, as well.

Yet, the New Testament does speak of the church coming together in one place (e.g. Acts 2:1,26; Acts 14:27; Acts 15:6, 22; 1 Cor. 11:20).

The way in which this works out practically, as I would argue it did in the early church, is that the city is a network of small congregations. I know, some/most Baptists will lose their minds over such an idea, but I think there is evidence that in large cities and regions, there were city/regional churches made up of smaller congregations. A house church in a city was not an independent entity. It was not a law unto itself. It was part of a network of churches in that city, which also means that there was some structure of leadership, which again is not an idea which many Baptists could not even entertain. . .

Actually I don't see much evidence of this working out practically any place in our modern era. I also think we tend to fill in the ambiguities in the texts with our prior notions of ecclesiology. Not suggesting we shouldn't try to sort it out, just considering the realities of the situation.

 

[thatbrian]

Yet, the New Testament does speak of the church coming together in one place (e.g. Acts 2:1,26; Acts 14:27; Acts 15:6, 22; 1 Cor. 11:20).

I agree. I think what happened is that small groups/congregations met for fellowship, and then gathered in large regional meetings.

 

[Jerome]

Best I could tell, by "homogenial word" Knollys simply means that the same word is used whether talking about all believers, all believers in a city, all believers meeting in a house, etc. Would that be your understanding of his meaning?

Yes, he gives the example of water. You can use the same word whether it is in the sea, a stream, a well, or a spoon. Likewise, in the Bible church is used of each of the churches in a city, or of all of them together.

Knollys did not limit the word church as the kooky Nee/Lee nondenominational denominaton does.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks.

Knollys seems clear in the first paragraph on the church on page 8 that he isn't talking about believers in the abstract, but, "the whole number of them that believed in Jesus Christ, confessed the Faith of the Gospel, and walked in the Order and Ordinances of the Lord in one City and Suburbs thereof." Walking in the Order and Ordinances of the Lord was limiting, and in Knollys case included immersion baptism.

 

[rlvaughn]

This morning I posted on my blog the 3 paragraphs of Knollys on the church in his Revelation commentary. It's the same as in the link above, but might be a little clearer than the old scan.

 

[agedman]

Yes, he gives the example of water. You can use the same word whether it is in the sea, a stream, a well, or a spoon. Likewise, in the Bible church is used of each of the churches in a city, or of all of them together.

Knollys did not limit the word church as the kooky Nee/Lee nondenominational denominaton does.

You may consider some of the ideas of Nee and Lee as unfaithful to the Scriptures, but they certainly were not "kooky."

Watchman Nee was a church planter in China. He desired churches thrive in China. His work continues in the typical underground church in this day.

Witness Lee was and American who worked with Nee in establishing the Chinese churches and later in life encouraged western churches to function in a way he considered more closely aligned with the Scriptures.

Neither were "kooky" and frankly much of their writing is worth consideration.

 

[rlvaughn]

Agedman, would you agree or disagree with Nee and Lee on "the city church" concept?

 

[agedman]

Agedman, would you agree or disagree with Nee and Lee on "the city church" concept?

I don't agree that there should only be a single church in each city. Doctrinal errors so infest the local assemblies that such will only occur when "We all get to heaven."

However, the desire may be good, and even Scriptural, the application marred by sin.

The consideration that a statement of faith may be used to divide is true.

What Lee desired (toward the end of his life) was such a focus upon Christ, that disagreements would be settled by everyone resolving to be a manifestation of Him rather than clinging to some manner of worldly thought that was clung to more favorably then the Scriptures.

 

[Jerome]

Baptist Press

Living Stream Ministry has its origins in the work of Chinese evangelists Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the "Local Church" movement. Mainstream churches consider some of its beliefs, particularly its strong opposition to church denominations, aberrant.

 

[agedman]

Baptist Press

OF COURSE the denomination powers are going to push back.

What do you expect?

There is prestige, honor, authority, money, power at stake. Pride, Lust, at the heart.

How else would you expect denominations to react?

 

[TCassidy]

Should there only be one church per city?

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Jerome]

Have a quibble with kooky?
Have a quibble with aberrant?
Take a gander at nondenominational John MacArthur's take on the sect:

cdn.gty.org/sermons/High/1301-K.mp3 [starts approx. 50 minute mark]

QUESTION: ...a born-again Christian, but he is a member of what is called the Local Church. Can you tell me anything about that?

JOHN MACARTHUR: "The Local Church is also known as the church of L.A. or the church of San Francisco, the church of Chicago, the church of Phoenix, the church of New York. They basically take the roots of their movement from the writings of Watchman Nee."

"Watchman Nee was a great Chinese Christian who wrote many books: Sit, Walk, Stand...But anyway, Watchman Nee had this idea that because in the New Testament you had the church at Philippi, the church at Ephesus, the church at Thyatira, the church at Sardis, the church at Thessalonica, da-da-da-da, that that's the way it ought to be today. So you gotta have the church at Canton, the church at Peking, the church at Hong Kong, the church at whatever. And so that was his vision. And so he outlines this in some of his writings, that should be only one church."

"there was a guy who was kind of a protege of him...Watchman Nee wrote in one his books that the thing that he felt he did not want ever to happen was that any of his writings would be the generation of a denomination. But that's exactly what did happen. Witness Lee came along behind Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is the guy who started the Local Church. The Local Church is...it's kind of funny because they've got a whole bunch of branches already in Los Angeles. They've got the church of Los Angeles Sepulveda, the church of Los Angeles South L.A. and the church of Los Angeles Orange County"

"Witness Lee came along and took this concept from Watchman Nee and then he developed a thing which is called 'pray reading.' And what that is, what they do in those services, they're highly emotional activities. They don't put any signs up. It's almost like a clandestine thing. They're very, they're very aggressive though on college campuses and so forth and they believe they're the only church with the only inside track and so forth. But they have this pray reading thing where they read their Bible and then they say things in between to kind of induce an emotional thing"

They follow the teachings of Watchman Nee...of Witness Lee, whose major book is titled Christ Versus Doctrine...They believe that doctrine is what has destroyed the church so you must eliminate all doctrine....all they really do is induce an emotional feeling out of that, kind of, rather ecstatic kind of reading. And they tend to look down on every other movement.

"As to whether they're Christians or not, I would imagine they probably have about the same mix as other groups of people who do know Christ and who do not. But it's very, a very strange group."