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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Sep 18, 2023.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    There are many who accept Propitiation as we in Christ we do escape the wrath to come (propitiation is avoiding wrath, or turning aside wrath).

    But I read FF Bruce argue that "propitiation" is too narrow a translation. He believes in Scripture it should be translated "atonement" or "expiation" (which includes propitiation by definition).

    I prefer "propitiation" because I believe forgiveness (rather than experiencing punishment) is in view.
     
  2. Arthur King

    Arthur King Active Member

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    He did and he also bore our sins in his own body on the cross. It was out of obedience to the Father, but it was also accomplishing our redemption.

    Redemption means payment of a price to free someone from bondage. Jesus pays our debt of obedience. That is the redemption. The redemption is the payment of our debt of obedience. Him "bearing our sins" means that we killed him. It also means he suffers the consequences of our sins with us.

    I have never denied God's wrath against sin. What I deny is the specific idea that God's wrath was poured out on Jesus instead of me. It is the idea of a very particular act of God's wrath - the pouring it out on Jesus instead of us - that we have a problem with. Not God's wrath in general.

    If Christ bore my sin in his own body on the cross, and it was necessary because of God's will that that be done for my redemption, and the same event is describes as the just for the unjust, then I have done no wrong by using the English word "substitution".

    Haha yes you have, because you have described nothing in the mechanism that is substitutionary. If you want to use the word substitution, then you need to describe an act that is a substitution. X does something instead of Y so that Y does not do that thing.

    Does Jesus die so that we won't die? No.
    Is Jesus crucified so that we won't be crucified? No.
    Does Jesus drink the cup so we won't drink the cup? No.
    Is Jesus baptized so we won't be baptized? No.
    Does Jesus lose his life so we won't lose ours? No.
    Does Jesus obey so that we won't obey? No.

    Does Jesus provide something that we don't have? Yes - infinitely so. But that does not entail a substitution mechanism. Again, if I am dead, and Jesus dies so that I can be raised with him, he provided something that I do not have - but the mechanism is not substitution.

    And I don't think that propitiation means expiation. It means wrath aversion or wrath reversal. But it does not mean "wrath displacement" which is the specific claim of penal substitution.
     
  3. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @Arthur King. I understand what you are saying but I insist that Jesus bore our sins in his own body for the express purpose that we then could avoid suffering the judgment of God upon us that we justly deserved. That is a substitution. We'll just have to disagree. I am not going to change my view and I have a formidable group of theologians and scripture that back me up. You are obviously not required to agree.
    I guess I could reply, "No I haven't!" and we could go on for 10 more threads but we are just going to have to leave it at a disagreement.
    I just disagree with you here also. When referring to God, wrath will be arrived at because of a just and proper reason. Therefore it will be abated when the reason for it is satisfied according to God's will. Wrath "displacement" to us as humans could be as simple as kicking your dog because you had a bad day at work. For God, wrath displacement involves a carefully worked out plan of the Triune Godhead that is mysterious to us but appears to involve the Son in his death on the cross. If the wrath we are talking about here is due to our sin then Christ took on our wrath in that sense. I know you don't agree with that and I respect that but it is scriptural, theological, and supported by a vast swath of Christianity.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Thread is closed
    Feel free to start a new one
     
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