The Coming Four Blood Moons

[Skandelon]

Have any of you heard about this apocalyptic speculations concerning the upcoming lunar eclipses that happen to be landing on some significant Jewish holy days? (google it if interested to know more)

John Hagee did a big series on it and I have a number of folks asking about it. I have my opinions but, just wanted to get the forum's take on it.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I put the speculations of john Hagee right up there with the Mayans and the others who predict the end of the world.

God has His own time.

 

[webdog]

I put the speculations of john Hagee right up there with the Mayans and the others who predict the end of the world.

God has His own time.

I don't know, Hal Lindsay even condemns this...it must be true :laugh:

Didn't this lunar pattern happen back in 2003?

 

[Herald]

I put the speculations of john Hagee right up there with the Mayans and the others who predict the end of the world

Tom, why are you insulting the Mayans?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Tom, why are you insulting the Mayans?

I think Hagee means well. I probably would agree with his eschatology, but hate it when people look at the alignment of the stars or the newspaper to get God's take on the fulfillment of scripture concerning the end times.

If he's right, it will be by accident, but I would love that Jesus would return soon.

 

[Herald]

I think Hagee means well. I probably would agree with his eschatology, but hate it when people look at the alignment of the stars or the newspaper to get God's take on the fulfillment of scripture concerning the end times.

If he's right, it will be by accident, but I would love that Jesus would return soon.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not a dispensationalist, so I obviously disagree with Hagee. Many of my old dispensationalist friends think he is out to lunch in a number of areas.

I am also looking forward to our Lord's return.

 

[HisWitness]

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not a dispensationalist, so I obviously disagree with Hagee. Many of my old dispensationalist friends think he is out to lunch in a number of areas.

I am also looking forward to our Lord's return.

He said that event has already happened on 2 other accounts in recent history--so did the Lord come already on 2 other occasions??

This event may happen again or even 5 more times--doesnt mean it has anything to do with the Lord's coming

 

[HeirofSalvation]

My take....it's decidedly worth listening to. Hagee is likely mistaken on some things. Dispensationalists have the courage to take what the Scriptures teach about things and at least attempt to make sense of them which is always subjected to withering criticism....

I wish I were an A-mil or Post-Mil whose sum-total task is to sit back and teach nothing about the end-times and merely dispirit and discourage those who try to relevantly warn people in their own time about Christ's imminent return, but some honest dispy's have to shoulder that burden....and yes, sometimes their views are askew or wrong. Sometimes, I think they are dead-on. I like Hagee as a rule, and he may have a point here.

I could only catch the first two parts of the series, I can't find the rest, but it seems like something worth hearing and taking into consideration. If true...it decidedly magnifies God in his providential perfection in ordaining the times and seasons and years of his plan in history.

 

[Herald]

He said that event has already happened on 2 other accounts in recent history--so did the Lord come already on 2 other occasions??

This event may happen again or even 5 more times--doesnt mean it has anything to do with the Lord's coming

In the summer of 1990 my wife and I were vacationing with my former pastor and his wife at the Word of Life Inn in Schroon Lake, New York (I'm a graduate of the Word of Life Bible Institute). One of the speakers was trying to equate Iraq's invasion of Kuwait as somehow being part of prophecy. If you recall, at that time Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait and our troops were getting ready to deploy for Operation Desert Shield. Now, I was a rabid dispensationalist at the time, but I was not quite comfortable with interpreting prophecy through current events. The 20th Century saw the horror of two world wars, murderous dictators, and ethnic cleansing. There was no rapture, and no anti-Christ. Israel became a nation in 1948. That single event has caused dispensational theologians a severe case of agita. Yet we are still here. All this to say that, even if Darby's eschatology is true, prophecy cannot be interpreted by current events.

 

[HisWitness]

In the summer of 1990 my wife and I were vacationing with my former pastor and his wife at the Word of Life Inn in Schroon Lake, New York (I'm a graduate of the Word of Life Bible Institute). One of the speakers was trying to equate Iraq's invasion of Kuwait as somehow being part of prophecy. If you recall, at that time Saddam Hussein had invaded Kuwait and our troops were getting ready to deploy for Operation Desert Shield. Now, I was a rabid dispensationalist at the time, but I was not quite comfortable with interpreting prophecy through current events. The 20th Century saw the horror of two world wars, murderous dictators, and ethnic cleansing. There was no rapture, and no anti-Christ. Israel became a nation in 1948. That single event has caused dispensational theologians a severe case of agita. Yet we are still here. All this to say that, even if Darby's eschatology is true, prophecy cannot be interpreted by current events.

thats the trouble we have today--Man is trying to take our events of our day and force them into the scriptures-or even try and say whats gonna happen in our future and say that means the end times--they hope that at least theyll get 1 of their false ideas right and itll be the one:-( :-(

When actually if man will read the scriptures in the way they were written and to whom they were written--its much easier to see truth of what and when it happened--although i will say it is hard to translate some of the HISTORY between AD 63-70( and history we need to understand)but some is clearly there that the scriptures tells about

 

[Herald]

I wish I were an A-mil or Post-Mil whose sum-total task is to sit back and teach nothing about the end-times and merely dispirit and discourage those who try to relevantly warn people in their own time about Christ's imminent return...

I am going to be charitable and chalk this comment of yours up to simply being misinformed.

I will not speak for post-millennialists because I am an amillennialist. It is true that amillennialists are not telling people to be ready at any time for the rapture. Why? Because we do not believe in, what we term, a secret rapture of the church. We tell Christians to be ready for the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The imminent return we are waiting for is Jesus' second coming. The scripture says:

[13]*But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(Matthew 24:13 ESV)

The scripture also teaches:

[4:1]*I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
(Ephesians 4:1 ESV)

This is what amillennial pastors and elders are teaching their flocks. It is what I teach mine. Be ready. The Lord can return at, literally, any moment. There is nothing left on the prophetic clock that must take place for Jesus to return. There is no need for an anti-Christ to be born. Israel does not need to return to the land. The true doctrine of imminency believes that God can choose now.

As an under-shepherd of a local flock, I desire to see our sheep fulfill Paul's admonition in Ephesians 4:1. Walk in a worthy manner. Be ready for the Lord's return. Be confident. Do not leave in fear that you may be left behind. Nothing helps a believer's assurance more than obedient living. Preaching this message is part of my calling.

P.S. The Matthew 24:13 reference should not be taken to mean that I am teaching a person can lose their salvation. It is a word of warning that Christians are called to a life of obedience.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I am going to be charitable and chalk this comment of yours up to simply being misinformed.

I will not speak for post-millennialists because I am an amillennialist. It is true that amillennialists are not telling people to be ready at any time for the rapture. Why? Because we do not believe in, what we term, a secret rapture of the church. We tell Christians to be ready for the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The imminent return we are waiting for is Jesus' second coming. The scripture says:

[13]*But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(Matthew 24:13 ESV)

The scripture also teaches:

[4:1]*I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
(Ephesians 4:1 ESV)

This is what amillennial pastors and elders are teaching their flocks. It is what I teach mine. Be ready. The Lord can return at, literally, any moment. There is nothing left on the prophetic clock that must take place for Jesus to return. There is no need for an anti-Christ to be born. Israel does not need to return to the land. The true doctrine of imminency believes that God can choose now.

As an under-shepherd of a local flock, I desire to see our sheep fulfill Paul's admonition in Ephesians 4:1. Walk in a worthy manner. Be ready for the Lord's return. Be confident. Do not leave in fear that you may be left behind. Nothing helps a believer's assurance more than obedient living. Preaching this message is part of my calling.

P.S. The Matthew 24:13 reference should not be taken to mean that I am teaching a person can lose their salvation. It is a word of warning that Christians are called to a life of obedience.

Ummm.... thanks for your "Charity" as you credited yourself with I guess. :thumbs:

 

[Herald]

Ummm.... thanks for your "Charity" as you credited yourself with I guess. :thumbs:

Well, the other option was to be caustic or sarcastic. No need to go there.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Well, the other option was to be caustic or sarcastic. No need to go there.

Ok....so, thanks for your "charity" then, as I said...:wavey:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

We tell Christians to be ready for the imminent return of the Lord Jesus Christ. The imminent return we are waiting for is Jesus' second coming.

It is equally signifigant to a dispensationalist...Rapture or "second coming" makes little or no difference...either way, as Johhny Cash said: "When the man comes around".
The scripture says:

[13]*But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
(Matthew 24:13 ESV)

A verse in no way germaine to an eschatological topic...pre-post-a-mill....this verse is true. You might as well have posted Genesis 1:1... this verse is irrelevant.

The scripture also teaches:

[4:1]*I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called,
(Ephesians 4:1 ESV)

Regardless of whether one is Post-Pre-A-Mil....or what have you...this is an independently true statement by Paul...it is meaningless and irrelevant to anything Hagee said, or the subject of the OP.

This is what amillennial pastors and elders are teaching their flocks. It is what I teach mine. Be ready.

It's what Dispensationalists teach their flocks too. It's what Hagee said.

The Lord can return at, literally, any moment. There is nothing left on the prophetic clock that must take place for Jesus to return

.
Agreed...Dispensationalists know this... So does Hagee.

There is no need for an anti-Christ to be born. Israel does not need to return to the land. The true doctrine of imminency believes that God can choose now.

Agreed....Dispensationalists know this....Hagee does too.

As an under-shepherd of a local flock, I desire to see our sheep fulfill Paul's admonition in Ephesians 4:1. Walk in a worthy manner. Be ready for the Lord's return. Be confident. Do not leave in fear that you may be left behind.

A meaningful and pertinent verse for Dispensationalists...Hagee approves.

Nothing helps a believer's assurance more than obedient living. Preaching this message is part of my calling.

Hagee approves.


But, as I said....I wish I were an a-mil or post-mil...and I were allowed to sit and merely criticize other Christians whose beliefs require them to make more dire warnings and suggest possible Biblically-based signs...It would be so convenient to have the capacity to merely sit in a seat of judgemental criticism and warm myself to the self-agrandizing throne of relentless criticism...surely, that's a reasonable desire to have no???

Believe nothing of substance on the topic MORE than what Hagee believes, and yet, self-congratulate at the way I might prosecute and demean a man who thinks the Scriptures might be pointing to more evidence and signs of what is already believed to be true in Orthodox Christianity.

 

[Herald]

A verse in no way germaine to an eschatological topic...pre-post-a-mill....this verse is true. You might as well have posted Genesis 1:1... this verse is irrelevant.

It is germane. The point I was making about the amillennial position is that, instead of waiting for a secret rapture, we are waiting for Christ's second and final return. We are to be ready for it. We are not looking for prophetic signs that may give us a clue that the Lord is returning. No one will know the day or the hour. In my dispensational days I knew many people who were literally terrified of missing the rapture. Pre-tribulational eschatology is partly to blame for that. Since Darby had to assault the text to come up with his theory, it is expected that some of his successors would step off the eschatological deep end. Hagee is one of the leaders in that area. His "Christian Zionist" theology is absolutely lunacy; repudiated by a host of mainline dispensationalists. Christians can help speed up the prophetic clock by helping Israel? To quote General Anthony McAuliffe, "Nuts!"

But, as I said....I wish I were an a-mil or post-mil...and I were allowed to sit and merely criticize other Christians whose beliefs require them to make more dire warnings and suggest possible Biblically-based signs...It would be so convenient to have the capacity to merely sit in a seat of judgemental criticism and warm myself to the self-agrandizing throne of relentless criticism...surely, that's a reasonable desire to have no???

It is a reasonable desire to teach scripture accurately. I will not answer for anyone else. My M.O. is not to - how did you put it? - "to sit and merely criticize other Christians whose beliefs require to them to make dire warnings and suggest possible Biblically-based signs". My M.O. is to testify to the truth. Do you really want to proclaim a "dire warning"? Preach the Gospel! The fact that Jesus is coming again to judge the quick and the dead is eschatology enough for a sinner. Supposed "Biblically-based signs" from dispensational eschatology is of what use to a sinner? There is only one sign worth proclaiming:

[14]*And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [15]*that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

(John 3:14-15 ESV)

Believe nothing of substance on the topic MORE than what Hagee believes, and yet, self-congratulate at the way I might prosecute and demean a man who thinks the Scriptures might be pointing to more evidence and signs of what is already believed to be true in Orthodox Christianity.

If you want to be a sycophant for John Hagee, then by all means, go right ahead. I am not interested in demeaning the man, but his teachings are fair game. He has chosen to place himself in the public eye. You cannot cry, "Foul!".

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It is germane. The point I was making about the amillennial position is that, instead of waiting for a secret rapture, we are waiting for Christ's second and final return. We are to be ready for it. We are not looking for prophetic signs that may give us a clue that the Lord is returning. No one will know the day or the hour. In my dispensational days I knew many people who were literally terrified of missing the rapture. Pre-tribulational eschatology is partly to blame for that. Since Darby had to assault the text to come up with his theory, it is expected that some of his successors would step off the eschatological deep end. Hagee is one of the leaders in that area. His "Christian Zionist" theology is absolutely lunacy; repudiated by a host of mainline dispensationalists. Christians can help speed up the prophetic clock by helping Israel? To quote General Anthony McAuliffe, "Nuts!"



It is a reasonable desire to teach scripture accurately. I will not answer for anyone else. My M.O. is not to - how did you put it? - "to sit and merely criticize other Christians whose beliefs require to them to make dire warnings and suggest possible Biblically-based signs". My M.O. is to testify to the truth. Do you really want to proclaim a "dire warning"? Preach the Gospel! The fact that Jesus is coming again to judge the quick and the dead is eschatology enough for a sinner. Supposed "Biblically-based signs" from dispensational eschatology is of what use to a sinner? There is only one sign worth proclaiming:

[14]*And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [15]*that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

(John 3:14-15 ESV)



If you want to be a sycophant for John Hagee, then by all means, go right ahead. I am not interested in demeaning the man, but his teachings are fair game. He has chosen to place himself in the public eye. You cannot cry, "Foul!".

No doubt many dispy's have gone off of the deep end on those issues, and abused the ideas. I do not know Hagee well enough to know whether he has done that or not, so perhaps he has. From what little I can see, he at least does talk about those types of things an AWFUL lot, and maybe too much. I just found the initial premise interesting and worth listening to.
I suppose I merely don't think we should be utterly close-minded if you are a dispensationalist.

As an a-mil....you obviously will have no appreciation for what he is saying in this sermon, a dispensationalist might find it worth the hearing.

On a side not: Whatever dispys you knew who were existing in some state of fear about missing the rapture or whatever, were abusing the teaching though, as there is, for the Christian nothing whatsoever to be afraid of. This would be no different than an a-millenialist who lives in constant fear of their ultimate salvation. I wouldn't blame a-millenialist teaching for that, anymore than you should blame dispensational teaching for the same mistake.

 

[MB]

There is nothing in scripture as far as I know about four blood moons. I think this whole thing is nothing but sensationalism, Which I believe Hagee is noted for.
There is no sign for a rapture.
MB